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Updating The Newbie Sticky Thread

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  • CrabmanCrabman Forumite
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    With regard to the following template (at the foot of the page):

    http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-letter/

    How do our regulars feel about it, compared with the one that is currently in the newbie thread?
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to [email protected] (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

  • UmkomaasUmkomaas Forumite
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    Crabman wrote: »
    With regard to the following template (at the foot of the page):

    http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/appeal-letter/

    How do our regulars feel about it, compared with the one that is currently in the newbie thread?

    The link at the foot of the page won't work.

    But if it's the one which starts 'Without Prejudice except as to costs', then firstly it's older than that in the newbies sticky, it's hardly an appeal, rather it asks the PPC a range of (IMO clever-!!!!!!) questions, which the PPC is not obliged to respond to and as they haven't received what they would regard as a substantive appeal, they will phillybuster their way past their self-imposed 28 day deadline. Once that's past, the motorist would have an uphill struggle to get a POPLA code.

    And by placing that 'Without Prejudice' statement at the top of their letter, they could rely on none of it in court. I cringe every time someone copies it out and posts it up here for comment.

    But NONE of these initial appeal templates is likely to have the appeal upheld - they are but a means to an end - POPLA (unless it's the IPC when none of the stuff is of much use against their kangaroo court appeals process).
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
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  • bod1467bod1467
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    Erm ... the link works fine for me. ???

    But yes - it IS that one "Without prejudice, except as to costs".
  • edited 7 June 2015 at 6:09PM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    edited 7 June 2015 at 6:09PM
    OK I have updated the Newbies thread as best I can at the moment, including post #3 about POPLA and the IAS.

    It now tells people that the point of appeal is to get a POPLA code and if it's an IPC firm, merely to state the case as keeper and appear reasonable but NOT to try IAS.

    I say that because I have experience of IAS appeals and IMHO they are pointless in at least 90% of cases, an utter waste of time and will scare people into paying. IMHO there is no IPC equivalent of POPLA in reality, despite the DVLA granting the IPC 'ATA status'. The victim of the PCN scam may even decide to ignore the entire PCN as long as it's not from a PPC such as the ones in red in post #1 of the newbies thread where we know they are 'likely' to sue.

    An IPC victim 'could' write back to the PPC at rejection letter stage and say why they are not going to use the IAS, citing the ways in which - by contrast - POPLA is 'seen to be independent' and asking for POPLA. They won't get POPLA, never ever, but to ask for that ADR and to explain why the IAS won't be attempted (without being rude or libellous) looks reasonable if they end up defending a claim because keeper liability was only granted in exchange for INDEPENDENT ADR being offered.

    They could even cite the scandalous unfairness of the so-called appeals offered by IPC members, as was shown in this blog by the Parking Prankster about the Watchdog programme in May 2015 ,especially if the PPC in question is PCM:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html

    Any comments welcome - although I have little time and won't be swayed on my advice about not using the IAS because I can't see why anyone would, except in rare cases with an astonishingly obviously winning argument. Even 'no keeper liability' and 'no signage shown near the car/terms not clear' don't work because the assessors appear to be Traffic Lawyers who seem to me to be programmed to think the PPC ticketer is some sort of 'officer' and the appellant is a scumbag looking for a loophole. Even if the appellant is a Policeman and the PPC is an ex-clamper, nope, you lose.

    Also the IAS victim/appellant doesn't get to see the PPC's evidence until they lose and has no comeback at all, nor can they share it on any forum as they have to tick a confidentiality box about not sharing the 'evidence' with ANYONE. So they are on a hiding to nothing at all and would IMHO have a fairer hearing in court.

    I cannot yet show 'how to win at POPLA' as that's a work in progress after Beavis and I don't want newbies thinking a template POPLA appeal (old style) will always be the answer now, because we don't know yet and because I recommend a rebuttal in almost every case, as well.

    But I have added wording in blue in post #3 there, that everyone should add to any POPLA appeal now as a fail-safe to catch their case from a loss if it's not a very strong case otherwise (e.g. if a person has already named the driver, for example, their case is weaker but can still be in the 'stayed for Beavis' pile).

    So no-one 'should' lose at POPLA as long as they also take on board that they must rebut the evidence pack in most cases and then if none of their other points win, the case will be stayed for ages by POPLA if they use the words in blue in post #3.

    The blue wording in post #3 to add to POPLA appeals, applies not just to ParkingEye cases, it applies to any case where you argue 'no GPEOL' and the operator argues 'GPEOL' or 'Beavis'. The only real danger in losing a POPLA appeal at the moment in my view, lies where a PPC doesn't argue either GPEOL or Beavis, such as CEL who like to pretend their charges are a core price term. The appellant must spot that in the evidence and rebut it with the transcript or quotes from CEL v McCafferty and a decent explanation of why the charge can't possibly be a genuine, agreed contractual offer to park.
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  • Ralph-yRalph-y Forumite
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    I have thought long and hard on this post.... I have composed replies twice and then not posted them .....

    my concern is the advice to (almost) never appeal to the ISA .........

    "advice about not using the IAS because why anyone would, except in rare cases with an astonishingly obviously winning argument. "

    my own personal view had been that the more evidence that is collated on the kangaroo court the better.......

    I do not wish to start a big discussion on this, but ( there is always a but) if Parking Prankster is now after .....

    "The Prankster is interested in compiling a list of bizarre IAS results"

    how will we do this if no one appeals ?

    If I am rocking the boat to much on this minor point then please some one tell me


    Ralph:cool:
  • edited 18 June 2015 at 6:12AM
    FruitcakeFruitcake Forumite
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    edited 18 June 2015 at 6:12AM
    Would it be possible to change the NEWBIES title font colour to bold RED to draw the eye of newcomers?




    I'm also of the opinion that IAS appeals should be pursued because it costs the PPC money, plus a rejected appeal would show how unfair the system is should it ever get in front of a judge
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  • CrabmanCrabman Forumite
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    Fruitcake wrote: »
    Would it be possible to change the NEWBIES title font colour to bold RED to draw the eye of newcomers?

    I'm also of the opinion that IAS appeals should be pursued because it costs the PPC money, plus a rejected appeal would show how unfair the system is should it ever get in front of a judge

    I wish it was as that sort of modification has been implemented on other vBulletin forum sites to great effect. Sadly it isn't possible on MSE's forum. :(

    Regarding IAS appeals, this may help if you've not already seen it.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to [email protected] (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

  • edited 24 August 2015 at 6:17PM
    HerzlosHerzlos Forumite
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    edited 24 August 2015 at 6:17PM
    I have to go with the flow on IAS here; if the reason not to do it is because it's doomed to fail and will scare people, why not just be upfront with that:

    "When your initial appeal is rejected, you should appeal to the IAS (who will also reject it - don't worry! your rejection will highlight how corrupt the IAS is and will make them look terrible in court. Do not worry about your IAS appeal being rejected!").

    Telling them not to bother with the IAS isn't going to stop any of the threat letters, and they lose the 1 in 10 (or 1 in 5) chance of straight getting rid, as well as getting a decision so bad that it'll never go to court.

    You can also follow it up with "If you feel your IAS rejection is incorrect, you should complain to the IPC, DVLA, SRA and MP detailing how corrupt the IPC system is". We need complaints in this sort of volume to get this whole scam put down.
  • silnsiln Forumite
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    Lots of usefule advice on this forum - however, I can't find the actual #3 post you often refer to. Also had my appeal to parking company (LDK) rejected (lots of mistakes and points I can use in appeal to POPLA) - however haven't been given a POPLA number. Not clear who issues this? Do I needto appeal on POPLA website or should this have been issued by LDK? Apologies if I'm missing something - have read Newbies thread several times!
  • QuentinQuentin Forumite
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    You need to start your own thread for specific advice to your case


    (#3 means post no 3 in the newbies faq)
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