SIPP investment in Property

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  • jamesdjamesd Forumite
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    lozzy1965 wrote: »
    Does this count as acceptable due diligence?
    "As a key account promoter", so no. A promoter is not a source of due diligence. A promoter's job is to promote.
  • lozzy1965lozzy1965 Forumite
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    Come on guys! Cut me a little slack! This is new to me. I am trying to investigate this opportunity by questioning the advice you guys are giving. Is that wrong of me?

    I have been investing in the UK stock market for many years. I know how to do that, but I am looking to diversify, and I do not know how to do that.

    Dunstonh, Thank you for your comments, maybe I am not the ‘average investor’ if I am still looking into this! I DO take on board your comments regarding Natural Resources Capital though.

    Linton, Thank you for your comments. Thousands of other regulated investments. Savings accounts? No. Not enough interest paid. Bonds? Same. Unit/Investment Trusts and the like? No need if I have a wide range of shares already, and I do not like paying other people commission and annual charges when I can quite happily make my own share choices. Property and rental markets I could go into, but that requires a lot of capital, and I have a flat I rent out already. I saw an IFA a few years ago who charged several hundred pounds to offer me no alternatives and tell me I was pretty much doing the right thing with my money so far! So, if I want to diversify, I regard this company as at least worth looking into! I have not managed to find anything that gives at least 5%, or better, over 10%. I take on board your comments regarding Natural Resources Capital too. I can invest 10K in this, and I regard this amount as dipping my toe in to test the water, though I am by no means rich enough to regard 10K as completely insignificant! And if I do invest, I will update this board.
    Oh dear ...

    You can lead a horse to water .....

    H
    This is just insulting. Never seen 12 Angry Men? I am trying to ask the right questions and take advice regarding an investment opportunity that appears to be quite plausible, though unregulated, and appears to pay 12% in one year. You would just dismiss those returns out of hand would you?
    mania112 wrote: »
    No it doesn't count as acceptable due diligence.

    That site in itself does not constitute due diligence maybe. Does Googling and looking at all the results? What would you do for due diligence, accepting that I do not want to fly out to Germany?
    mania112 wrote: »
    I KNOW that website and i'm wondering if we should question YOUR authenticity?!
    I found this by Googling. What do you know about that site? Why does it make you question my authenticity?
    mania112 wrote: »
    You have to do some real digging to find sippclub.com in a google results search and you know too much to be asking the fundamental questions you are asking.
    I don’t know how you use Google, but if I want to find out about something, I generally type in the name of the something I want to find out about. In this case I typed in “Dolphin Capital GMBH” and it’s the 4th result returned! In fact, the result below that is Yahoo Finance. Is that another dodgy site? And I know so much because I have been digging for several weeks on and off!
    mania112 wrote: »
    Let's leave it there shall we?
    Let's not. Let's explore this until someone can come up with some hard evidence as to why this is a bad investment. Because all I have seen so far is that it is unregulated, so not for most people. I have not seen hard evidence to show it is a good, or a bad, investment!
    jamesd wrote: »
    "As a key account promoter", so no. A promoter is not a source of due diligence. A promoter's job is to promote.
    Thank you jamesd. This is the kind of constructive comment I want, so that I can learn from my mistakes.

    In short guys, I have Googled extensively, and Dolphin Capital looks like a genuine company with a genuine product. But it IS unregulated. It’s been running since 2008 apparently, so plenty of time for any naughtiness to appear on the net. The only bad thing I can find out about it is that it was placed on the MAS list in Singapore. Which means, further digging reveals, that it is not regulated in Singapore, same as it is not regulated over here. No laws broken. The difficulty – taking on board the helpful advice you guys have given me – seems to be in how to invest in it through an adviser that IS regulated. Do regulated advisers offer unregulated products?

    And the last question of this post. Given that I were happy to invest in this unregulated company, what benefit would a regulated adviser offer me? The knowledge that they would actually invest my money in this company, and not run off with it, or more than just this?
  • LintonLinton Forumite
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    lozzy1965 wrote: »

    .......

    Linton, Thank you for your comments. Thousands of other regulated investments. Savings accounts? No. Not enough interest paid. Bonds? Same. Unit/Investment Trusts and the like? No need if I have a wide range of shares already, and I do not like paying other people commission and annual charges when I can quite happily make my own share choices.

    Can you make your own share choice? On a global basis? Do you have the contacts, knowledge, and time to for example research small companies, again possibly globally? If so why are you asking us for our views?

    So you dont like commission and charges. Who pays for the London office? And the nice Mr Hall?

    .......


    This is just insulting. Never seen 12 Angry Men? I am trying to ask the right questions and take advice regarding an investment opportunity that appears to be quite plausible, though unregulated, and appears to pay 12% in one year. You would just dismiss those returns out of hand would you?

    Yes - if its a red hot cert why are they going through the hassle of getting the small investor involved - cold calling hundreds on the off chance that a few may be interested. Surely they should go to a small number of professionals willing and able to invest £Ms.

    That site in itself does not constitute due diligence maybe. Does Googling and looking at all the results? What would you do for due diligence, accepting that I do not want to fly out to Germany?

    For an investment like this, more appropriate for the really serious investor - yes you should fly out to Germany and then if it was real think about investing £n00K.

    ..........

    Let's not. Let's explore this until someone can come up with some hard evidence as to why this is a bad investment. Because all I have seen so far is that it is unregulated, so not for most people. I have not seen hard evidence to show it is a good, or a bad, investment!

    No-one will come up with evidence that it is a bad investment. What we can come up with is evidence that it shares many of the characteristics of genuine scams. Unless you are proposing to put in sufficient money for you to seriously investigate whether it is as good as it claims in my view its not worth considering at all unless you are blase about the possibility that you may lose all your investment.

    ......

    You have asked the questions. You have had a pretty unanimous response from people with no vested interest as to whether you invest or not. Up to you.
  • dunstonhdunstonh Forumite
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    I saw an IFA a few years ago who charged several hundred pounds to offer me no alternatives and tell me I was pretty much doing the right thing with my money so far!

    Excellent. That is exactly what it should be. You are buying advice. Not a product. The product IFAs arrange dont pay commission.
    and I do not like paying other people commission and annual charges when I can quite happily make my own share choices.

    Yet these options you are looking at will have more than their fair share.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Let's feed the troll:

    Your argument against those of us telling you stay clear is that it's a good investment (says the man who is selling it to you) and the ONLY problem is that it's unregulated.
    Adj. 1. unregulated - not regulated; not subject to rule or discipline; "unregulated off-shore fishing"
    regulated - controlled or governed according to rule or principle or law; "well regulated industries"; "houses with regulated temperature"
    2. unregulated - without regulation or discipline; "an unregulated environment"
    unstructured - lacking definite structure or organization; "an unstructured situation with no one in authority"; "a neighborhood gang with a relatively unstructured system"; "children in an unstructured environment often feel insecure"; "unstructured inkblots"

    Why are you glossing over the fact it's unregulated?

    UK law provides UK citizens with regulations - you don't commit crime do you? Law is set by the government, and so is Financial Regulation, so what's the difference? Why are you willing to take the risk?

    Do you know anyone that has ever made any money in an unregulated offshore investment?

    Why Dolphin Capital? Why not any of the other many schemes like this? You've done a lot of googling...

    ...and did you come across these articles?

    http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/regulation/fca-warns-investors-over-paying-more-to-harlequin/1072898.article

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268929/Revealed-The-200m-pension-pot-raiders-target-needy--make-million-nuisance-calls-MONTH.html

    http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/fsa-s-ucis-warning-sparks-complaints-wave/a662923

    12 Angry Men is fantasy... was that your point?
  • lozzy1965lozzy1965 Forumite
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    I seem to be getting rather more embroiled in this than I had intended! I am meaning to try to ask questions to help anyone else reading this thread, but I think I've messed it up somewhat! Apologies.

    "Can you make your own share choice? On a global basis? Do you have the contacts, knowledge, and time to for example research small companies, again possibly globally? If so why are you asking us for our views?"

    I can make my own share choice on a UK basis, and I have dealt in shares for long enough to know that there is no such thing as an expert. I have dealt in small companies using a stock broker's advice and made and lost money, and learnt that there is no such thing as an expert here. No comments on Savings accounts, Bonds, Trusts? Can you suggest some regulated investments that offer a good diversification for me with the returns? I have not found any.

    "So you don't like commission and charges. Who pays for the London office? And the nice Mr Hall?"

    I have dismissed the nice Mr Hall and his company. I have taken on board the comments on here regarding that. I don't need your sarcasm. I cannot yet dismiss the investment he was pushing. It just looks plausible!

    "Yes - if its a red hot cert why are they going through the hassle of getting the small investor involved - cold calling hundreds on the off chance that a few may be interested. Surely they should go to a small number of professionals willing and able to invest £Ms."

    Lots of small investors amount to a large sum of money. Small investors can turn in to large investors. Why does anyone bother with small investors? Again these comments are directed at 'the nice Mr Hall's' company. I have Googled the underlying investment and the company has been doing the same thing for years, and I can't find any complaints.

    "For an investment like this, more appropriate for the really serious investor - yes you should fly out to Germany and then if it was real think about investing £n00K."

    Thank you. At last some real advice on due diligence. I am not prepared to do that because I do not have huge amounts of money that I wish to invest in this, as I do only want to put 5% into ventures such as this.

    "No-one will come up with evidence that it is a bad investment. What we can come up with is evidence that it shares many of the characteristics of genuine scams. Unless you are proposing to put in sufficient money for you to seriously investigate whether it is as good as it claims in my view its not worth considering at all unless you are blase about the possibility that you may lose all your investment."

    This statement sounds very sensible except that I have been approached many, many times over the years with 'investment opportunities'. I have performed the same 'due diligence' with them and very quickly found them to be scams or poor investment vehicles. The difference with this one is that I have not found anything wrong with it. It sounds plausible. They have been running for many years. No horror stories, BUT no "that was the best thing I've ever done with my money" stories either.

    Thank you all for your input. I'm finished now unless someone posts something that requires an answer, or I decide to go ahead with this and tell you all that I am a total idiot and I've lost my money, or what they say is true and I've made 12%.

    If anyone out there has made, or lost money on this, please post. I'm sure we'd all like to know.
  • bigadajbigadaj Forumite
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    Its up to the OP what he wants to do, balance of probability is that it will not be a good decision but we all need to take decisions and take responsibility for them.

    I'm sure there are cases where schemes like this have paid off, however the balance of probability is that it won't, and in most forms of investments the key thing is to get the balance of probability in your favour.

    I don't understand why you wouldn't fly to Germany if you're prepared to punt ten grand though, I'd want as much due diligence and investigation as I could get, and investing a few hundred on a trip seems like a good investment even if the actual investment might not be.
  • edited 9 September 2013 at 8:53PM
    lozzy1965lozzy1965 Forumite
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    edited 9 September 2013 at 8:53PM
    mania112 wrote: »
    Let's feed the troll:
    Me thinks you are the troll. You make a lot of points and tell me nothing. I wonder how you got all those "thank yous"!
    mania112 wrote: »
    Your argument against those of us telling you stay clear is that it's a good investment (says the man who is selling it to you) and the ONLY problem is that it's unregulated.
    This is not my point, and you are putting words into my mouth or deliberately misunderstanding me. I am saying that the underlying investment looks plausible. That is all. I did not believe the man who told me, which is why I have googled so much and came to this website. I have found nothing so far to show that Dolphin Capital is a scam or anything other than a valid investment. I am not saying that that makes it ok to invest in. It IS unregulated and that is NOT an insignificant point.
    mania112 wrote: »
    Why are you glossing over the fact it's unregulated?
    I am not. I am being very clear that it is unregulated and I am not saying that it is ok that it is unregulated.
    mania112 wrote: »
    UK law provides UK citizens with regulations - you don't commit crime do you? Law is set by the government, and so is Financial Regulation, so what's the difference? Why are you willing to take the risk?
    All investments are unregulated, until the government has written regulations to cover them. It is an additional risk, but that does not mean one doesn't even look at the possibility that it might be worth investing.
    mania112 wrote: »
    Do you know anyone that has ever made any money in an unregulated offshore investment?
    I don't personally know anyone who has either made, nor lost money in an unregulated offshore investment.
    mania112 wrote: »
    Why Dolphin Capital? Why not any of the other many schemes like this? You've done a lot of googling...
    Why not! Because that is the scheme that was highlighted to me. I know there are loads of scams regarding property. I have found many myself by performing the same due diligence I have performed with this. So far, this appears to be legit. That doesn't mean it is. That doesn't mean you will make money out of it.
    mania112 wrote: »
    ...and did you come across these articles?

    Links I can't post
    You are the man who cannot google properly and you show me these. I hoped you'd found some articles showing that Dolphin Capital were scammers! Then we could close this thread! So you've found some articles showing that there is property investment fraud in this world and that you shouldn't release funds from your pension fund early. I know these things. I hijacked this thread because I had the same call as the original poster, however, I do not have SIPP funds to invest. Show me that Dolphin Capital is not a legitimate business and I will be happy.
    mania112 wrote: »
    12 Angry Men is fantasy... was that your point?
    You are one of the angry men pal.
  • lozzy1965lozzy1965 Forumite
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    bigadaj wrote: »
    Its up to the OP what he wants to do, balance of probability is that it will not be a good decision but we all need to take decisions and take responsibility for them.

    I'm sure there are cases where schemes like this have paid off, however the balance of probability is that it won't, and in most forms of investments the key thing is to get the balance of probability in your favour.

    I don't understand why you wouldn't fly to Germany if you're prepared to punt ten grand though, I'd want as much due diligence and investigation as I could get, and investing a few hundred on a trip seems like a good investment even if the actual investment might not be.

    Again, what you say sounds very sensible, but I ask this. I assume we are all happy that scams are usually fairly easy to spot? I assume you would expect that a company that has been doing the same thing since 2008 would be reported in many sites as a scammer, if it were a scammer? So if you remove the scam schemes, where is the balance of probability then? I do not know the answer to that question, but your statement becomes less obvious then! You are right that I should spend a few hundred quid on flights to risk £10K though.
  • atushatush Forumite
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    Me thinks you are the troll. You make a lot of points and tell me nothing. I wonder how you got all those "thank yous"!


    You with ten posts. all on this subjecty/investment are calling a poster with over 1000 posts on Different subject and over 300 thank yous a Troll?

    Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything the above poster has to say, but we all know They aren't the Troll here. Look int he Mirror.
    I have not seen hard evidence to show it is a good, or a bad, investment!

    Go on, prove you're not a Troll and invest in this company anyway. In a few years, when you realize you have been taken to the cleaners and come back here to complain we'll all have your 'hard' evidence. After all, if you were genuine and were determined to invest even after all that has been said, you can be our evidence of bad judgement thru greed.
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