Dodgy transactions in Spain

billy2006_2

Has anybody had experience of unauthorised transactions on their credit card abroad? A trip to Spain at the beginning of the year was disastrous.

Because the PIN was used (not by us) MBNA say it is not possible that the transactions were fraudulent - even though the place managed to run up £4,000 worth of spending (10 smaller transactions, roughly every 4 minutes).

My mate also had his bank account wiped out, using a debit card rather than a credit card. Luckily for him, he didn't have much in it. He's been told it's not possible as well.

Spoke to the people who try to sell you insurance for identity theft, they said that this is definitely fraud (but then they would do) but from a couple of articles I have read it seems that beacuse Spain do not have Chip & PIN, the card readers read the information from the magnetic strip only and do not look for the chip, and that therefore cloned cards can be used in the spanish machines. The PIN number is obtained by mirrors, or a device in the machine, or us fools just not being careful enough. I have no proof that this happened, it just seems the most likely explanation.

I was wondering if anybody else has had a similar experience?

Comrade

Because the PIN was used (not by us) MBNA say it is not possible that the transactions were fraudulent - even though the place managed to run up £4,000 worth of spending (10 smaller transactions, roughly every 4 minutes).

That is a load of brown stuff. They are trying to fob you off and save themselves £4,000. It doesn't matter whether PIN has been used or not, they have to refund you the money anyway.

I have no proof that this happened, it just seems the most likely explanation.

You don't need to prove them anything. It is clearly stated in the Banking Code that they have to prove that those transactions were not fraudulent. Call them and insist that they refund you all those transactions. If they won't do anything, make a complaint using their complaint procedure.

benf90

Just to add to what Comrade has put on here, the following is taken from the latest Banking Code:

12.12

Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently or without reasonable care, your liability for your card being misused will be limited as follows:

• If someone else uses your card, before you tell us it has been lost or stolen or that someone else knows your PIN, the most you will have to pay is £50.

• If someone else uses your card details without your permission, and your card has not been lost or stolen, you will not have to pay anything.

• If someone else uses your card details without your permission for a transaction where the cardholder does not need to be present (for example, buying something over the internet), you will not have to pay anything.

• If your card is used before you have received it, you will not have to pay anything.

However, the Banking Code does also have clauses about keeping the PIN safe etc, which I presume is what MBNA may highlight. This bit is open to interpretation I suppose but I'd say that just because the PIN was used doesn't automatically mean you haven't taken all reasonable steps to keep it secure.

If you want to have a read through the Banking Code yourself, it can be accessed here:

http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/pdfdocs/PERSONAL_CODE_2008.PDF

I'd also recommend you follow Comrade's suggestion of making an official complaint to them. If it's still unresolved then take it to the Financial Ombudsman to see if they're able to look into it for you.

JoseChungsDoomsday

mbna don't subscribe to the banking code.... :money:

Night-owl_6

I would report this soon as possible and ask them to investigate it

Night-owl_6

JoseChungsDoomsday wrote: »

mbna don't subscribe to the banking code.... :money:

No banking code :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Why ever not :eek:

JoseChungsDoomsday

Night-owl wrote: »

No banking code :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Why ever not :eek:

They have their own 'code'. It's the usual tactics of a large american bank.

leicsmarkyr

JoseChungsDoomsday wrote: »

mbna don't subscribe to the banking code.... :money:

Are you sure? I have just got a A&L card and that had a Banking Code letter in it. Or is that because its an A&L card administrated by MBNA?

billy2006_2

Thanks for all your tips - particularly about the banking code. I will look into that.

I have reported it to MBNA, they were extremely slow at dealing with the complaint, fobbed off left, right and centre, but they have now written stating that they won't enter into further correspondence. So I guess it's off to the Ombudsman!

James

Sorry to learn of your great misfortune and welcome to joing the FOS queue.

The Financail Ombudsman can be found by clicking here.

This site is strewn with similar tales. One forum contributor with a similar tale to yours has been waiting almost a year for his case to be dealt with by the FOS.

I suppose another option which hasn't been tested yet is the Small Claims Court (although I haven't checked the maximum claim these days)

It's quite ironic that I asked Martin if he'd consider having a Subject Header - Card Fraud. It could have been a One Stop Shop for tales like yours, information on what to do and an alert to where Card Fraud was taking place. We could have had the opportunity to spot and stop card fraud. Martin has declined at this moment in time, but I hope he revists his decision soon.

You might like to view the Watch Dog Video (Chip & PIN Fraud) click here.

You may also ask MBNA if they can guarantee they or retailers have kept your PIN secret.

Recent Cases:

Bournemouth

Dagenham

Kenilworth.

If PIN security can't be guaranteed by the Industry, how can they hold YOU responsible for alleged PIN misuse?

CHIPs can't be cloned. It just so happens I have a duplicate in every resepect Chipped card, even down to the CVV value (on the back of the card). Both cards work and have been tested in a CHIP only environment.

What MBNA are saying is they don't believe you. They are accusing you of frist party theft. If they say they do believe you BUT they think you were negligent with your PIN, then they have to prove it. Either way I really believe a court of law would be quicker and more decisive than the FOS.

Good luck. (Which?)

billy2006_2

Just in case anybody is interested, the Ombudsman turned down the complaint. He said he suspected somethng dodgy was going on but could not prove it so took the bank's version of events. MBNA, and then a debt collection company pursued us vigourously for payment throughout the process, despite assurances that they would not do so until the matter was finally determined - lots of threats about county court proceedings, credit ratings and sending somebody round to the house. I suspect many people would have been intimidated into paying. As a last resort I contacted Jessica at the Daily Telegraph. She was brilliant, I got the case referred back to the Ombudsman (not one of the adjudicators) and this time the decision used a bit of common sense and said that the nature of the transactions (increasing in value every 5 minutes or so until the credit limit was reached and then decreasing) was entirely inconsistent with use of the card by the holder and that it must have been out of his possession longer than he thought. He ordered MBNA to rework the credit card statement as though the transactions had never taken place, make sure that there were no adverse records on the credit file and pay £300 compensation. Plus, we got a big mention in Jessica's column.

I quoted the banking code a lot in my correspondence with both the credit card company and the Ombudsman. it seemed to have no bearing on the decision. The credit card company repeatedly said "Our records show PIN was used and CHIP was read and therefore not fraud."

It took just over 2 years to resolve this. I'm only posting now because I read someting else on the forum and it reminded me that I had not let you all know the outcome. Thank you to everybody for your helpful suggestions.