Stansted Airport NSL PCN - Is the PoFA 2012 "not relevant land" defence still vaild?

cooldude255220

Coupon-mad said:

If the roundabout in question is that circle (bottom right) then I agree with you, but I think we also agree that it doesn't affect the case being non-POFA due to the wording of the NTK.

Looking at the map:

The PPC might also be operating outside of their enforcement boundary of course! We've seen VCS do that before.

Glad to see you posting here, BTW. Do stay, we need more posters with a good grip on this aspect of contract law!

Never mind the futile farce of appeals, cases are a pushover and interesting to argue at court. You might enjoy lay repping parking cases if ever you get a chance. I never lost a case at any hearing where I lay repped and I only have French A level (plus a couple more irrelevant ones) from many years ago

Sorry, the roundabout is (I think) the one towards the middle/bottom, which I annotated in the yellow box, but did not make clear I had done so:


Yes; in this instance I think the OP is safe either way. 

I am keen to bottom this issue out though, because I think the catch-all advice to cite byelaws for airport cases might be tripping people up in some cases, i.e. where byelaws don't actually apply to that land; and the Notice is POFA-compliant; and they issue proceedings etc. 

And yes, the PPC trying it on would not surprise me... 

Thank you! I'm sure I will be trying to help where I can. 

That sounds very interesting! And it's why I'm more than open to be challenged; I have some knowledge and am generally good at reading legislation, but you and others here have rafts of experience which I don't have.

I am wondering if the advice regarding airport appeals could be tweaked though. There are definitely some (I've briefly looked at a few London ones thus far) where the alleged conduct is within the Aerodrome boundary and thus not relevant land. But there are others which are outside the boundary and so theoretically might end up (in a worst-case scenario) with going to Court and being ruled against on the basis of keeper liability. 

rob610183

I believe all the 'airodrome' area outlined in red on the screenshot is Airside, so not accessible to the general public

ChirpyChicken

@cooldude255220
The only parking companies who operate at airports in the UK are
Met Parking
VCS
NSL
NCP

Met Parking
(only on one part at stansted) They claim to use POFA but always withdraw when challenged at POPLA on NKL

NCP Dont use POFA and the apcoa appeal text works for them

APCOA(set text for all apcoa appeals)
all sites where apcoa operate are on land controlled by bye laws and in addition they dont use POFA.

VCS dont claim to use POFA at airports either (unless that has changed) and are beatable at court on keeper liability /byelaws etc. They are like a dog with a bone but very beatable with the right tools

That just leaves NSL so its not a big issue

cooldude255220

rob610183 said:

I believe all the 'airodrome' area outlined in red on the screenshot is Airside, so not accessible to the general public

Yes I think that's right (for Stansted). 

In fact, since that first post, I've discovered this, which is the Aerodrome chart filed with NATS (it is almost identical to the one in the Aerodrome Manual though). 

Taking Gatwick's as a different example; theirs actually covers a lot more land, including some car parks to the very right



and the BP Connect (which I think from memory is here:

 

cooldude255220

ChirpyChicken said:

@cooldude255220
The only parking companies who operate at airports in the UK are
Met Parking (only on one part at stansted) They claim to use POFA but always withdraw when challenged at POPLA on NKL)
VCS
NSL
NCP (they dont use POFA and the apcoa appeal text works for them)
APCOA(set text for all apcoa appeals)
all sites where apcoa operate are on land controlled by bye laws and in addition they dont use POFA
VCS dont claim to use POFA at airports either (unless that has changed)
That just leaves NSL so its not a big issue

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of information you don't get by burying your head in the byelaws/maps/POFA!

ChirpyChicken

cooldude255220 said:

ChirpyChicken said:

@cooldude255220
The only parking companies who operate at airports in the UK are
Met Parking (only on one part at stansted) They claim to use POFA but always withdraw when challenged at POPLA on NKL)
VCS
NSL
NCP (they dont use POFA and the apcoa appeal text works for them)
APCOA(set text for all apcoa appeals)
all sites where apcoa operate are on land controlled by bye laws and in addition they dont use POFA
VCS dont claim to use POFA at airports either (unless that has changed)
That just leaves NSL so its not a big issue

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of information you don't get by burying your head in the byelaws/maps/POFA!

Oops forgot about UKPPO at newcastle!

cooldude255220

ChirpyChicken said:

cooldude255220 said:

ChirpyChicken said:

@cooldude255220
The only parking companies who operate at airports in the UK are
Met Parking (only on one part at stansted) They claim to use POFA but always withdraw when challenged at POPLA on NKL)
VCS
NSL
NCP (they dont use POFA and the apcoa appeal text works for them)
APCOA(set text for all apcoa appeals)
all sites where apcoa operate are on land controlled by bye laws and in addition they dont use POFA
VCS dont claim to use POFA at airports either (unless that has changed)
That just leaves NSL so its not a big issue

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of information you don't get by burying your head in the byelaws/maps/POFA!

Oops forgot about UKPPO at newcastle!

Interestingly, the Newcastle bylaws state that the Airport means  "the aerodrome known as Newcastle International Airport, shown delineated in red on the plan attached to these byelaws".

Both the bylaws and the the plan are available here: https://www.newcastleairport.com/corporate/aerodrome-safety/airport-byelaws/

Crucially, the plan provided covers a larger area than the NATS aerodrome chart: https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2022-04-21-AIRAC/graphics/242222.pdf

Coupon-mad

So - as was suggested by another poster - the aerodrome charts might well be depictions of the 'airside only' section?

That isn't going to be the whole Airport boundary, as we know. Non-airside roadways and buildings can cover a large peripheral area of any airport.

rob610183

Here's another snap from Streetview, - the end of the A120 airport slip road, showing a sign stating that Stansted Airport byelaws (1996) apply from that point onwards, so appears that 'Relevant Land' definitely not applicable

cooldude255220

Coupon-mad said:

So - as was suggested by another poster - the aerodrome charts might well be depictions of the 'airside only' section?

That isn't going to be the whole Airport boundary, as we know. Non-airside roadways and buildings can cover a large peripheral area of any airport.

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. 

If you look at my post regarding Gatwick's NATS Aerodrome Chart, that one actually does cover a lot of ground which is clearly not airside-only. Which obviously means the charts aren't just a depiction of the airside only section.

The question in each case needs to be: where do the byelaws apply. In the first instance, that will depend on the wording of the byelaws; specifically any wording as to where they apply, and whether there is a plan annexed. If there is a plan, then the assumption will be within the marked boundary. If there is no plan, then it will depend on the wording of the byelaws which inevitably seems to come back to the aerodome.

But, the issue about what the NATS chats show actually a raises a question about just how far geographically the byelaws can extend. I mentioned in my first post that:

The legislation for airport byelaws is section 63 of the Airports Act 1986 which allows byelaws to be made to regulate conduct of all persons while within the airport. Section 82 defines airport as meaning "the aggregate of the land, buildings and works comprised in an aerodrome...".

The definition is section 82 is actually truncated slightly. The full definition is:

“airport” means the aggregate of the land, buildings and works comprised in an aerodrome within the meaning of the 1982 Act;

The Civil Aviation Act 1982 defines an aerodrome as

“aerodrome” means any area of land or water designed, equipped, set apart or commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft and includes any area or space, whether on the ground, on the roof of a building or elsewhere, which is designed, equipped or set apart for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft capable of descending or climbing vertically;

Putting that all together, you get:

The airport operator ... may make byelaws for regulating ... the conduct of all persons while within the aggregate of the land, buildings and works comprised in an ... area of land or water designed, equipped, set apart or commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft

Gatwick's byelaws state: “the Airport” means the aerodrome known as Gatwick Airport – London. 

Now, going by the Aerodrome plan, that does extend to various non-airside locations including some car parks. 

But looking at the legal definition of airport > aerodrome under the enabling Act, can it really be said that those car parks are land designed, equipped, set apart or commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft? 

So there's an argument that regardless of what the Aerodrome Chart or Plan says, so much of that document which depicts something which is not legally aerodrome may be ultra vires.