PCN (52M Failing to Comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)

Goudy

Mildly_Miffed said:

facade said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

forgotmyname said:

I don't know the area so unsure of the signage other than that pictured. Do you need a permit to own a car if you live within the zone?  Or could you get away with not having a permit if you only drive in/out outside the restricted hours?

What if you bought a car or collected a car inside the zone, can you not drive it out until the restricted hours are up?

It's a Low Traffic Neighbourhood. The only vehicles allowed to use the roads within the zone during those hours are those of holders of N1 permits. Residents are eligible to purchase those permits.

https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/news/2024/west-and-east-greenwich-traffic-management-scheme-update-were-making-changes-based-your#

Out of morbid curiosity, how much is such a permit?  I couldn't see it on that page, which is usually a sign that it is expensive! 

It's London. It has excellent public transport.

It's London, It has frequent public transport.

South London doesn't have the same public transport infrastructure as the rest of London. Trains and buses and the odd tram here and there but the Tube network is limited.

To be fair, the traffic using those short cuts and traffic generally in that area is heading elsewhere. 
They are heading for the A2 or with another shortcut or two, the A20 and out into Kent.

Grumpy_chap

Ron97 said:

Hi everyone, 

I received a PCN from Greenwich council for the above mentioned reason. One where the restrictions are not 24/7, but timed. Personally, I have no recollection of doing so. So I logged in to see the evidence, and all photos and the video they have is from me driving out if said zone. I know I might be stretching it a bit here, but is that worth appealing? The only "evidence" they provided is me driving through the sign from behind, where it cannot be seen. I attached one of the photos below.

Thanks in advance everyone!

What type of zone is it?
Is it a "school streets" zone?
If so, the following guidance (for a randomly selected LA based upon top internet search placing) says:
 "Vehicles will not be able to enter the streets during the hours of operation"
and
"Vehicles already parked within a School Street can exit without a penalty"

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/roads_and_transport/transport_planning_schemes/transport_planning/school_streets/about_school_streets

I cannot see any difference in the signage in that linked article compared to the signage in the photo shared by the OP. 

Others have suggested the zone in the OP's case is / might be a "LTN - Low Traffic Neighbourhood".  How does one differentiate between a "LTN" and a "Schools Streets" zone?

paul_c123

Grumpy_chap said:

Ron97 said:

.................
"Vehicles already parked within a School Street can exit without a penalty"

...........

Pic clearly shows the OP driving into the zone backwards.

Grumpy_chap

paul_c123 said:

Pic clearly shows the OP driving into the zone backwards.

Hmmmm,

I am looking at that picture again and note that the signs on the opposite side of the road are twisted on the post. 

There is one sign twisted so apparently wholly out of sightline from anyone actually on the road and the "unsuitable for HGV" sign appears to be twisted so that it is parallel to the road rather than easily visible for road users to see and read clearly - is that sign applicable going in the OP's direction of travel or the opposite direction of travel?

So, it makes me think, could it be that the zone sign and the camera sign have both been twisted and should be showing facing the opposite direction?
If the sign has been twisted through 180 degrees around the post, then the sign is intended to be visible from the opposite direction and the photo would show the OP driving into the zone, not driving out of the zone.

Would it be logical that a sign is to be read from the side of the road where the sign is positioned?

If the sign has been twisted making it visible from the incorrect direction of travel, one might expect that will be grounds for successful appeal.

Goudy

It's a Low Traffic Neighbourhood Scheme (LTN).
It's setup to discourage drivers using the residential streets as a rat run.

You need an exception to drive in it/through it in the times and days it operates.
So just like congestion charge, it doesn't matter if they record you leaving or entering.
If the ANPR camera catches you crossing the boundary within the times/days the zones operates, they will fine you if you haven't an exemption.

As with most zonal traffic management systems, the signage informing you that you are entering the zone is on the boundary facing outwards with pre warning signs placed on the roads leading to the zone.
As you leave the zone there will be Zone Ends signs facing inwards.

That image appears to be at the bottom of Maze Hill at the junction with Tom Smith Close (Maze Hill train station) and I think that twisted sign is a yellow direction sign to a housing building project (The River Gardens).

Mildly_Miffed

Grumpy_chap said:

paul_c123 said:

Pic clearly shows the OP driving into the zone backwards.

Hmmmm,

I am looking at that picture again and note that the signs on the opposite side of the road are twisted on the post. 

There is one sign twisted so apparently wholly out of sightline from anyone actually on the road and the "unsuitable for HGV" sign appears to be twisted so that it is parallel to the road rather than easily visible for road users to see and read clearly - is that sign applicable going in the OP's direction of travel or the opposite direction of travel?

So, it makes me think, could it be that the zone sign and the camera sign have both been twisted and should be showing facing the opposite direction?
If the sign has been twisted through 180 degrees around the post, then the sign is intended to be visible from the opposite direction and the photo would show the OP driving into the zone, not driving out of the zone.

Would it be logical that a sign is to be read from the side of the road where the sign is positioned?

If the sign has been twisted making it visible from the incorrect direction of travel, one might expect that will be grounds for successful appeal.

Apart from it not being big enough, the clearly visible sign on the opposite side is perfectly adequate...

Also, if that kind of trivial vandalism was sufficient to render the zone unenforceable, opponents would be out every night.

If @Goudy is correct about the location, as they would appear to be, then that is a dead-end street which can ONLY be accessed by vehicle by passing the sign in the photo...

Unfortunately, the most recent Streetview image is pre-LTN.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LCU1rj3o8TAqnMYJ7

The obvious conclusion is that the OP was heading to the station for drop-off or pick-up, saw the signs, and thought "Ah, I'll be fine... I'm only going 100m up here for a minute..."

The camera that got the OP would appear to be specifically marked on this map of the zone as a "Camera enforced traffic filter"...

Goudy

Maze Hill isn't a dead end.

The image is of the car coming down Maze Hill (south to north on that map), just before the junction with Tom Smith Close (which would be on the drivers right hand side a few metres further along)

So about here
35 Maze Hill - Google Maps
(notice manhole cover on pavement as sign attached to the wall on the right hand side)

The camera is positioned not at the very end of Maze Hill but part way up so the train station can be accessed from the main road to the north (Trafalgar Road) without tripping past it, but not from the South.
So it can't be accessed by driving all the way down Maze Hill.

So the camera would be here
Greenwich Park - Google Maps

So you can access the station from the north (Trafalgar Road) freely but the image from the PCN is clearly showing the vehicle heading north towards Trafalgar Road BEFORE the train station junction.

Aretnap

Grumpy_chap said:

Others have suggested the zone in the OP's case is / might be a "LTN - Low Traffic Neighbourhood".  How does one differentiate between a "LTN" and a "Schools Streets" zone?

Ultimately it will be the wording of the Traffic Regulation Order that determines whether the restriction applies merely to entering the zone, or driving anywhere in the zone during restricted hours, not whether the zone is branded as a LTN or a School Street. The TRO should be available somewhere on the council's website.

I'm going to stick my neck out and guess that it applies to any driving within the zone, as otherwise there wouldn't be much point setting up the cameras to photograph vehicles as they exit the zone. However the OP would certainly lose nothing by finding the TRO and checking.

Mildly_Miffed

Goudy said:

Maze Hill isn't a dead end.

The image is of the car coming down Maze Hill (south to north on that map), just before the junction with Tom Smith Close (which would be on the drivers right hand side a few metres further along)

Ah, I thought you meant it was emerging from TSC, having been to the station. My bad.

Grumpy_chap

Aretnap said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Others have suggested the zone in the OP's case is / might be a "LTN - Low Traffic Neighbourhood".  How does one differentiate between a "LTN" and a "Schools Streets" zone?

Ultimately it will be the wording of the Traffic Regulation Order that determines whether the restriction applies merely to entering the zone, or driving anywhere in the zone during restricted hours, not whether the zone is branded as a LTN or a School Street. The TRO should be available somewhere on the council's website.

I'm going to stick my neck out and guess that it applies to any driving within the zone, as otherwise there wouldn't be much point setting up the cameras to photograph vehicles as they exit the zone. However the OP would certainly lose nothing by finding the TRO and checking.

Thanks, but how does a driver know when the are in one of these zones whether it is "LTN" (restricts any driving in the zone during operation hours) or "School Streets" zone (only prohibits entry during operation hours but permits exit) ?

The driver can't be expected to park up, find the TRO, read it in detail...
The driver has to be able to determine the rules quickly and simply by the signage.
I can't see the difference between the signage in the OP's photo (apparently an LTN) and the other link signage for School Streets.  Maybe I missed something.