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Neighbour claims he owns loft.

124

Comments

  • sak said:
    The conservation officer is happy for a firewall to be built.  The neighbour does keep walking around in the loft since his new partner moved in and has also blocked my sons entrance to loft. As someone stated, they are a pair of drug users, who do not work and need money to finance their habit. They seem to believe that they could force my son to buy the loft space from them. However, why on earth would anyone purchase something that they already own?  A solicitor has been engaged by my son but it is rather scary to be advised that despite having every conceivable document stating the loft is his, the neighbour can claim he owns it despite having no documentation.

    Where is the loft access - is there one or two? If only one, how does the other person get access to their side?
    Yes, these things are scary and bizarre, but simply claiming something is the case does not make it so. Your son's deeds shows the loft area over his flat as demised to his flat, and presumably the neighbour's shows ditto for his - so the neighbour is BSing.

  • TripleH
    TripleH Posts: 3,124 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Firstly, get a copy of both title deeds for the properties to see what they both say.
    I assume the loft hatch is secure so they cannot get into your son's property through it?
    Does next door actually own the property or might they rent it?
    Are there any funny smells, dodgy wiring etc? Lots of people calling round at unusual hours? Get your son to keep a diary of events as it looks good to build up evidence in case it is needed in future.
    May you find your sister soon Helli.
    Sleep well.
  • I would hope the Police would be interested if neighbour is trespassing in your sons loft and blocking access.   

    However, catching them now your son has moved out is going to be harder.  Perhaps installing (renting?) some sound recording equipment. 
  • I would hope the Police would be interested if neighbour is trespassing in your sons loft and blocking access.   

    However, catching them now your son has moved out is going to be harder.  Perhaps installing (renting?) some sound recording equipment. 

    Unless aggravated, Trespass is a Civil offence. Hence why it's best to get a solicitor involved.

    Here you go if you fancy some light reading.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_in_English_law

  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 25,723 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    edited 30 November 2024 pm30 6:07PM
    I’m really sorry your son has been forced out of his home. 

    It the loft belongs to him, why not force entry to it? Preferably when the neighbours are not there. What does the new solicitor advise?


    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • ThisIsWeird
    ThisIsWeird Posts: 7,634 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 1 December 2024 am31 8:32AM
    I would hope the Police would be interested if neighbour is trespassing in your sons loft and blocking access.   

    However, catching them now your son has moved out is going to be harder.  Perhaps installing (renting?) some sound recording equipment. 

    Unless aggravated, Trespass is a Civil offence. Hence why it's best to get a solicitor involved.

    Here you go if you fancy some light reading.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_in_English_law

    This one sounds pretty aggravated to me.
    If the OP - possibly with some friends - is up for it, they could likely bring this to a conclusion by just enforcing their rights.
    The deeds seem unambiguous, and it's not for your son to provide any further evidence to counter the neighb's daft claim - it's for the claimant to do so.
    If your son has a couple of friends willing to assist, then protect themselves fully; as many discrete pocket video cameras as needed - £15 each - (and phones ready as backup), and then gain their rightful entry to their rightful loft space and see what's going on. 
    Any neighbour stuff on the OP's side, shift well on to the neighbour's side. Any sign of illegal activity - the storage of illegal material, or any mods to the OP's wiring, etc, then call the police right away. Take full quality recordings using phones.
    Finally, employ a carpenter to construct a firewall. Then set up a discrete home camera covering your loft and that firewall - any damage, call the police.
    You either do this, or you don't.
    Do not be concerned about the neighbour interfering during this - in fact, welcome the opportunity to record yourselves telling him the facts of the situation (don't let him know he's being recorded, unless at some point it may be useful to do so). 
    Calm and matter-of-fact.
    "The deeds make it clear the loft above my flat is demised to me, and yours to you. You know you are trespassing, don't you?"
    Depending on their response - if there's any sign of intimidation, threat, or aggression, hold you hand up in front of you and add, "Ok - that's crossing the line. That's becoming aggravated trespass, and that is criminal behaviour. Do you want me to call the police?"
    Keep the issue on simple terms as above - do not be led down any convoluted argument. End each statement with a Q as above. Repeat these Qs if he rambles; focus the points back to the essential issue - 'the deeds say', 'trespass', 'aggravated', 'calling police'. Be fully ready to play the 'pull out the phone and do you want me to call the police? card'. 
    If he is trying to prevent you from accessing and using your part of the loft by either threats or blocking your route, that is aggravated trespass. That is a crime.

    You haven't actually made it clear how he has blocked your access...
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 17,520 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Do not be concerned about the neighbour interfering during this - in fact, welcome the opportunity to record yourselves telling him the facts of the situation (don't let him know he's being recorded, unless at some point it may be useful to do so). 


    You might find it hard to find a carpenter who is willing to work under those circumstances.

    And the carpenter won't want to read (and understand) your deeds, so they won't know if you or the neighbour are in the right.

    And if the neighbour simply stands where the carpenter wants to build the wall (or stands on your side of the loft), you're stumped.

    And if that happens, maybe you can persuade the police to attend (e.g. because there's likely to be a breach of the peace), but they probably won't understand your deeds either. I suspect there solution would be for everyone to get out of the loft, to end the confrontational situation.


    It might be more achievable, if you can arrange the work to be done when the neighbours are out - if you can predict it and get a carpenter on standby. But maybe check the implications with a solicitor beforehand.

    But then the neighbours might dismantle the carpenter's work, resulting in the next round of legal arguments (e.g. alleging criminal damage).

  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 25,723 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    edited 1 December 2024 am31 9:51AM
    The OP's son has moved out of his own home because of the neighbours, so we can safely assume that he doesn’t want any sort of confrontation. 

    Personally, I would hack my way into the loft, if only to find out what is going on in there. But, I would definitely wait until the neighbours are out. 

    Come to think of it, I might be a bit more subtle and make a small hole for a usb camera. I don’t really need a person sized hole in my ceiling. 


    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • I would hope the Police would be interested if neighbour is trespassing in your sons loft and blocking access.   

    However, catching them now your son has moved out is going to be harder.  Perhaps installing (renting?) some sound recording equipment. 

    Unless aggravated, Trespass is a Civil offence. Hence why it's best to get a solicitor involved.

    Here you go if you fancy some light reading.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_in_English_law

    This one sounds pretty aggravated to me.
    If the OP - possibly with some friends - is up for it, they could likely bring this to a conclusion by just enforcing their rights.
    The deeds seem unambiguous, and it's not for your son to provide any further evidence to counter the neighb's daft claim - it's for the claimant to do so.
    If your son has a couple of friends willing to assist, then protect themselves fully; as many discrete pocket video cameras as needed - £15 each - (and phones ready as backup), and then gain their rightful entry to their rightful loft space and see what's going on. 
    Any neighbour stuff on the OP's side, shift well on to the neighbour's side. Any sign of illegal activity - the storage of illegal material, or any mods to the OP's wiring, etc, then call the police right away. Take full quality recordings using phones.
    Finally, employ a carpenter to construct a firewall. Then set up a discrete home camera covering your loft and that firewall - any damage, call the police.
    You either do this, or you don't.
    Do not be concerned about the neighbour interfering during this - in fact, welcome the opportunity to record yourselves telling him the facts of the situation (don't let him know he's being recorded, unless at some point it may be useful to do so). 
    Calm and matter-of-fact.
    "The deeds make it clear the loft above my flat is demised to me, and yours to you. You know you are trespassing, don't you?"
    Depending on their response - if there's any sign of intimidation, threat, or aggression, hold you hand up in front of you and add, "Ok - that's crossing the line. That's becoming aggravated trespass, and that is criminal behaviour. Do you want me to call the police?"
    Keep the issue on simple terms as above - do not be led down any convoluted argument. End each statement with a Q as above. Repeat these Qs if he rambles; focus the points back to the essential issue - 'the deeds say', 'trespass', 'aggravated', 'calling police'. Be fully ready to play the 'pull out the phone and do you want me to call the police? card'. 
    If he is trying to prevent you from accessing and using your part of the loft by either threats or blocking your route, that is aggravated trespass. That is a crime.

    You haven't actually made it clear how he has blocked your access...
    Aggravated is when violence or threatened violence is involved. Which actually is what you’re suggesting.

    Use a solicitor. Do it properly. No one wants to come out of this with a criminal record.
  • ThisIsWeird
    ThisIsWeird Posts: 7,634 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 1 December 2024 am31 10:39AM
    eddddy said:
    Do not be concerned about the neighbour interfering during this - in fact, welcome the opportunity to record yourselves telling him the facts of the situation (don't let him know he's being recorded, unless at some point it may be useful to do so). 


    You might find it hard to find a carpenter who is willing to work under those circumstances. Quite possibly, But you call the police if the neighbour interfers. Or, you learn how to use a saw and 'ammer.
    And the carpenter won't want to read (and understand) your deeds, so they won't know if you or the neighbour are in the right. They don't need to - you are employing them to carry out a pretty obvious job. They get started, and if the neighbour interferes, you call the police.
    And if the neighbour simply stands where the carpenter wants to build the wall (or stands on your side of the loft), you're stumped. No, you call the police - it's a crime. Aggravated trespass. And you are recording all this.
    And if that happens, maybe you can persuade the police to attend (e.g. because there's likely to be a breach of the peace), but they probably won't understand your deeds either. I suspect there solution would be for everyone to get out of the loft, to end the confrontational situation. Not a botp, an actual crime - AT.
    It might be more achievable, if you can arrange the work to be done when the neighbours are out - if you can predict it and get a carpenter on standby. But maybe check the implications with a solicitor beforehand. Don't bother will solicitors. But, yes, if it's easier to do this whilst the neighb is out, then fine - but then you'll know there will be a response, and you'll be waiting, friends or not. The ideal scenario is that you, and friends, tackle this in the most matter-of-fact manner - just do it as you are entitled to do - and then be ready to challenge (and record) the neighbour if they interfere, and call the police.
    But then the neighbours might dismantle the carpenter's work, resulting in the next round of legal arguments (e.g. alleging criminal damage). Not a legal challenge - a criminal act.


    You either sort this out, or you don't. The law is on the son's side. He doesn't have Leg Prot. This shouldn't cost him any more than timber and p'board.
    Yes, I'm being somewhat flippant, but this situation is actually quite ludicrous when you examine it. It needs taking back to its basic elements; the facts are established and unambiguous - the son knows what the two sets of deeds say, and it's irrelevant whether the neighbour acknowledges these bits of paper or not. Take it to its logical conclusion - the neighb starts to use one of the son's bedrooms, claiming it's his. Does the son say, 'Hang on - I'm going to ask a solicitor'?
    You make the police come out if the neighbour interferes - you oblige them to. Once out, the neighb will be told to C&D. The police may have a casual look at the deeds, but what they should do regardless is tell the neighbour; "If you truly believe this is your property, then you need to tackle this the correct way - which is legally. You do not interfere with, or intimidate, your neighbour - you understand?" And the neighb would be a complete twit if he tried anything. And you do call the police again if the neighbour says anything remotely threatening or unpleasant. 
    There is only ONE thing the neighbour should be legitimately permitted to do, and that's take out his own legal challenge for gaining this loft. And, of course, that is never ever going to happen.
    Or do nothing. Or pay stupid money to a solicitor.
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