Neighbour claims he owns loft.

sak

Wonder if anyone can help? My son and his partner purchased a property that was but about 1800's and is grade 2 listed.  Originally there was one large property which at some stage had been converted into 2 properties.  My sons first floor has a flying freehold over approx 2ft of next doors property although it is not mentioned on the deeds.  There is no firewall in the loft. The neighbour was fine since 2019 when the property was purchased by my son. However, he has moved a partner in with him who is not a very nice character.  They have for the past 10 months played loud music, been abusive and generally made my son and his partners life hell. As they had a baby they felt is was best to sell and move as they do not want any trouble.  However, the neighbour discovered that they were trying to sell and indeed had an offer. The neighbour and his partner threatened the estate agent and the potential purchasers and are now claiming that they own the entire loft space.  A solicitor has been engaged.  My son and partner have every document that can possibly be obtained proving the loft is theirs. However, it seems that because the neighbour insists he owns their part of the loft they will have to take him to court. As you can imagine a young couple with a baby just turned one year do not have the money to do so. The police are not interested as they clam it is civil. The pressure from the neighbour of constantly playing loud music and filming my son etc got so much that they moved out 2 months ago and are staying with family. Is there anyone that could possible offer any advice?  It seem ridiculous that one can purchase a property, and 5 years later someone else claims they own part of it but produce no proof. 

sheramber

Does your son have legal cover o his house insurance?

sak

Unfortunately not. 

user1977

sak said:

My son and partner have every document that can possibly be obtained proving the loft is theirs. However, it seems that because the neighbour insists he owns their part of the loft they will have to take him to court. 

Why? If somebody (wrongly) claims that they own part of your property, so what? You don't need to take them to court, unless, say, they're actually occupying it and you need to kick them out.

Going to court about the harassment is a separate matter of course.

tacpot12

Your son needs the professional help of a solicitor, which he has got. 

Your son needs to accept that the deeds don't prove his legal ownership of the loft, and therefore it is open to debate. Having a decision in court and getting new deeds drawn up to record the court's decision seems to be the only way forward.

Once this is done, your son can declare, when selling the house, that there are no active disputes. I would not mention that there was a dispute in the past unless this specific question is asked.

I have learned from a number of property transactions that solicitors are not very good at spotting problems with deeds. There is a simple reason for this. They do not visit the property and look at what the property looks like and compares this to the deeds. I had a problem rooted in this when I bought my third house. Neither me nor the solicitors noticed that the Title Plan at the Land Registry didn't show the garden! I owned the house for 13 years without realising that I didn't own the garden! This error only came to light when I came to sell the property. Luckily, I had a receipt for fencing done when I had bought the property that showed I had enclosed the garden at least 12 years before I wanted to sell the property and so was able to sucessfully claim adverse possession of the garden! Who keeps receipts for 13 years? Luckily, I did. 

housebuyer143

Does your son need the entire loft? Would the matter be resolved if they say they only had what was directly above their house and removed the flying freehold?

Brie

Someone has recently told me (so no proof this is true) that where there are flats with lofts above them the owners of the flats being leaseholders do not in fact own the lofts.  The freeholders own the lofts instead as they in fact own the roof of the building.  

If this is in fact true then the neighbour doesn't own the loft above your son's property but it is the freeholder who does.  So unless the neighbour is also the freeholder there's no cause for dispute.  (obviously the neighbour will disagree)

Happy to be corrected.

gm0

How awful

The way forward depends on motivation - whether this is just bloody minded mischief of a random nature for the joy of it

Or title encroachment trying defacto or dejure grab more of the building perhaps to convert the loft later.  Layout, your title and the physical conversion may inconveniently prevent or hamper this desired option. Along with the listing. Doesn't stop people fantasising.

Or it's obstruction to sales with a view to buy you out cheaply later and remerge the whole thing. 
If so they need to be made to understand this isn't going to work via financially stressing the young family owner.  Because they have backup. They will not get to buy it far below market abusively.  They need to approach the transaction legitimately. Or not approach it at all.  Then hold your nose and sell it to them at/very near market value - a tiny win. And move on.

Or they don't want it at all but it is a simple shakedown to settle an entirely or mostly invented title ambiguity dispute. 

Just looking for easy cash from your family to theirs. To remove the obstacle they can throw in front of conveyancing.  A simple blackmail of opportunity.  Some people do this sort of thing.  They have for centuries. It massively offends sense of fairplay but it is what it is.

Fixing titles/refiling after legal adjudication path is possibly long and painful.  Worth avoiding.
Yet it may be all there is in some of the scenarios above.

In others you may have to do something you *really* don't like.  To move on. Via a line of least resistance with someone you have signficant dislike of already. If so - do so carefully escrow until you have your outcome etc. Solicitor.  You agree to settle the "dispute" and exchange agreements to that effect. So you can declare it settled.   Then as part of implementation of that agreement - but only after your sale.  A small payment made into escrow is released once that escrow condition is met.  Completion of conveyancing on the now agreed title plans when you sell - solicitor stuff.  Dispute settled.  They stay quiet. You sell. Over.  They win the dispute resolution settlement amount.

If it works once.  They may try it again on the next owner.  You need to be careful what you say and do around disputes and declarations to the letter.

A logical step is when opportunity presents to try and tease out what they really want - if it is in fact a rational thing at all

Oh and also get some remote view text alert cameras in there.  In case of further physical mischief in an empty property.

user1977

Brie said:

If this is in fact true then the neighbour doesn't own the loft above your son's property but it is the freeholder who does.  So unless the neighbour is also the freeholder there's no cause for dispute.  (obviously the neighbour will disagree)

We don't know the neighbour isn't the freeholder, and even if not, they could have a lease which includes the loft. Though the OP suggests son has title to the loft. Not clear what the grounds for any dispute are.

eddddy

Brie said:

Someone has recently told me (so no proof this is true) that where there are flats with lofts above them the owners of the flats being leaseholders do not in fact own the lofts.  The freeholders own the lofts instead as they in fact own the roof of the building.  

If this is in fact true then the neighbour doesn't own the loft above your son's property but it is the freeholder who does.  So unless the neighbour is also the freeholder there's no cause for dispute.  (obviously the neighbour will disagree)

Happy to be corrected.

The OP mentions ...

sak said:

My sons first floor has a flying freehold over approx 2ft of next doors property although it is not mentioned on the deeds.  

So it sounds like the properties are freehold, not leasehold.

And so presumably, the neighbour is claiming that they have a flying freehold, because 'their' loft is situated above (part of) the OP's son's house.

valueman1

I would take them to court and get the matter resolved formerly.  They may back down once they realise they are going to have to pay legal fees themselves.  It doesn’t sound like they have a valid claim to any part of the loft.  Your son’s solicitor is at fault here for insufficient due diligence.