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Parking Notice for Drop Off Area

Hi all,

Before I start a massive thanks to all who contribute to this forum. I've used the information to get a few tickets for people cancelled in the past but usually with a successful plan A complaint or a POPLA appeal. This one seems a bit more complicated.

I am fairly certain that I know the answer to this but I just want to check that the following scenario is still worth challenging as I can't find many comparable scenarios on the boards. There is a car park which serves a few buildings and has recently been getting very busy on weekend mornings. Parking is free, signs say 3 hour maximum stay. There is a drop off lay by in the car park which has yellow lines marking it out (looks a bit like a box junction but vehicles there don't block the flow of traffic). As the building immediately next to the drop off zone (gate in fence is literally next to it) is closed at weekends the driver assumed it was reasonable to park there. In a year of using the car park at weekends they don't recall ever seeing someone use it as a drop off zone (but other cars have been parked there at busy times). During the week they would not have considered parking in this zone. Driver had two young children with them at time of parking event. Due to the recent busyness of the car park it sounds like the landowners have encouraged the PPC to step up patrols, driver has now seen patrols on two consecutive weeks but hadn't seen any during the previous year. Photo evidence of the parking event shows the car on the yellow painted zone and next to a parking sign. Contravention is not parking in a marked bay. The vehicle did not exceed the free 3 hour parking limit.

Landowner is not a retailer and have said they won't cancel the ticket.

PPC is Countrywide Parking Management who look like IPC members. The NTK looks POFA compliant (can post it to the 2023 NTKs thread for someone else to check as there isn't a Countrywide one there). I am assuming that the recommended course of action would still be to appeal to Countrywide with one size fits all template from newbies thread, expect rejection, ignore IAS, ignore debt letters and then wait for possible LBC (there are some mentions of Countrywide working with BW Legal on other threads)?

The concern is whether or not the nature of the parking event is ever a big factor at small claims stage? At that stage a lot of the examples I've read on the boards mention residents car parks etc, or signs not next to the space but in this case there's a sign next to the vehicle (albeit with tiny writing) and yellow lines on the ground and no resident/permit aspect. Am I right in thinking that there'd still be plenty of points at small claims stage, i.e. landowner consent/ability to offer contract, the almost inevitable adding of spurious charges to the initial charge amount and the general points about unregulated/parasitic industry and changes coming in to law which would be enough to form a case? Question 1 is therefore should this still be challenged and is there a risk it's a weak case if it makes it to small claims?

If question 1 is "yes still challenge it" then question 2 is how best to appeal as keeper rather than RK. RK wasn't with the vehicle on the day, can a temporary keeper just send the one size fits all appeal template with their name at the bottom and that will be taken as moving liability to a new keeper? Alternatively the charge notice has a slip on the back with an option that states "I was the keeper of the vehicle stated, but the vehicle was in the possession of the person named below" - could the RK send that off and delay things by another couple of weeks as PPC would have to issue another NTK? Either way, once the transfer has happened all the debt collector letter chain and any possible small claim would be in the keepers name, not the RK - i.e. they would not need to be involved at all?


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Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,370
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    Countrywide have never featured in a Court claim AFAIK.  Three yeses to the below!
    1.  PPC is Countrywide Parking Management who look like IPC members. The NTK looks POFA compliant (can post it to the 2023 NTKs thread for someone else to check as there isn't a Countrywide one there).

    2.  I am assuming that the recommended course of action would still be to appeal to Countrywide with one size fits all template from newbies thread, expect rejection, ignore IAS, ignore debt letters and then wait for possible LBC

    3.  Alternatively the charge notice has a slip on the back with an option that states "I was the keeper of the vehicle stated, but the vehicle was in the possession of the person named below" - could the RK send that off and delay things by another couple of weeks as PPC would have to issue another NTK?


    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • evets
    evets Posts: 22
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    Thanks! I've uploaded a redacted Countrywide NTK here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80434820/#Comment_80434820 Not sure if it's POFA compliant or not - it's very close?

    It looks like it's possible to transfer keeper liability via their appeals website, any reason to pick post over online (online would be easier)? Assume no rush and deadline is 28 days from date of NTK?

    This is the option on their appeals site, looks like it's possible to transfer keeper liability without naming driver (Liable Party Designation option):

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,370
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    edited 1 December 2023 at 3:57PM


    That paragraph at the top of page 2 is appalling.  Page 1 shouts about a CCJ too.

    Looks POFA compliant except for minor technicalities (such as not stating that they don't know who was driving) but I'd say a Judge would consider it a PoFA one.

    Yes you can do transfer of liability online.  Decide now if that's a good idea. Who is best out of the two if you, at ignoring £170 debt demands and staying up to date on this forum?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • evets
    evets Posts: 22
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    Thanks, I thought that might be the case (re: PoFA).

    The RK would not want to be on top of the admin (and is less enthusiastic about fighting it), the liability transfer is not only to move it to the actual keeper at the time of the event but also to move it to the person who is more engaged with the process (and this forum).
  • evets
    evets Posts: 22
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    It has taken a while for Countrywide to respond to this (transfer of liability made in early December) but they have now sent a letter to the keeper that liability was transferred to. The liability was very clearly transferred to a new keeper, not identifying the driver (see the option used in the online portal in screenshot above). However Countrywide have issued a letter titled "Notice to Driver" to the newly identified keeper and the body of the letter has the phrase "We, the creditor, have been advised that you were the driver of the vehicle at the time the Parking Charge was incurred".

    I am not sure what the rules are once keeper liability has been transferred without identifying driver so was hoping someone might be able to clarify a couple of points please?
    1. Is there a time limit for serving this notice once the transfer of liability has been made, e.g. similar to the 14 days from parking event POFA limit for initial NTK?
    2. It says that "Copies of the documents provided to us from the keeper are available on request" and provides an email address. Is there any point in following that up and pointing out that an alternative keeper has been identified (i.e. not the driver) or does this just go straight to appeal now? Or is it worth simply getting the documents now (as well as submitting appeal) as evidence no driver was identified?

  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 57,993
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    edited 5 February at 2:14PM
    I suggest stating categorically that the driver was not named/identified by the registered keeper, and the new appeal is being made by the (day to day) keeper, not the driver. Then include the minor points about the new original and new NTK being non-PoFA compliant.

    You redacted the dates on the image of the original NTK, but presumably you have checked they are PoFA compliant.
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  • evets
    evets Posts: 22
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    edited 5 February at 2:22PM
    Yes, it has a link to the appeals process and a paragraph about it on the back (although there's no transfer of liability form as with the original NTK).

    Is the wording from the standard appeal template sufficient or should the new keeper add something indicating they are aware the RK didn't identify the driver?

    Just to clarify the comment about "day to day" keeper - in this scenario the RK had let the new keeper use the car for the day but wasn't with them, the vehicle was returned to the RK at the end of the day.

    I think the original NTK was PoFA compliant, but the notice to the new keeper has taken about 6 weeks since the RK submitted the transfer notice (online).
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 57,993
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    The new keeper needs to highlight at every point the driver was never identified, and the appeal is from the new keeper, not the driver.

    However, in this scenario, it could be argued that the day to day keeper was also the hirer/lessee. The new keeper could in theory therefore appeal as hirer/lessee using one of the edna basher letters.

    See what others say, but I believe it is important to emphasise that the RK did not name the driver, only the day to day keeper.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,370
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    I disagree because they'll revert to the rk.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • evets
    evets Posts: 22
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    I disagree because they'll revert to the rk.
    Just to confirm do you disagree with appealing as hirer/lessee or disagree with clarifying that the RK did not identify the driver?

    If it's ok to call out that the RK did not identify the driver then should the keeper appeal using the standard template but highlight that the RK only identified a new keeper. Something like this?

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

    The registered keeper informed you that I was the keeper at the time of the allegation, they did not identify who was driving. I will treat your recent "Notice to Driver" as if it says "Notice to Keeper".

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.



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