Should I just pay?

Umkomaas

So sorry, I tried looking it up but I can't figure out what PDT stands for.

Pay & Display Terminal.

beatsneedrhymes

Umkomaas said:

So sorry, I tried looking it up but I can't figure out what PDT stands for.

Pay & Display Terminal.

Thank you. In which case, no, there isn't one – it's a permit holders' arrangement. 

beatsneedrhymes

beatsneedrhymes said:

Le_Kirk said:

@D_P_Dance, the OP has explained that the word "fine" does not appear on the signs and he/she uses it as short hand for speculative invoice.

@beatsneedrhymes what you need to do is sort out in your own mind what reason you parked when it stated permit holders only UNLESS of course it didn't say that on the signs.  What sort of car park was it?  Was there a big P inviting you (or anyone) to park?  Was there a PDT?  Was it a workplace car park and do you work there?

Thank you for your reply. You're quite right about sorting it out in my own mind.

All of this is prompted by me deliberating whether to appeal today, before the 14 days reduced rate (£60) period is up, or waiting for the 25/26 day mark as recommended on the Newbies thread – by which time I could be facing the £100 charge and maybe much more in terms of costs, time and stress if it all ends up in court. 

I have read on the forum that Secure A Space *rarely* prosecute but that means, on occasion, they do. And my worry is mine seems a more open and shut case than most.

It's a private car park. It's near where I work but not a workplace car park; the company has no claim to it at all. The sign says it's for permit holders only. I was parked there while I was at work (many at work do – a colleague was parked there at the same time and didn't receive a ticket, but I realise dragging them into it is no defence. They were lucky; I was not.)

There is a big P on the sign.

So sorry, I tried looking it up but I can't figure out what PDT stands for.

Further, the sign to main entrance says Private Land, there is a big 'P', and in large letters 'Parking Restrictions Apply'. My only contention might be it is hardER to see that sign in the dark, but by no means impossible and, thevcar lights certainly illuminated it!

Do we agree, mine is a situation where the scammers have a pretty good chance of seeing the scam through to the end, please?

EarlsdonUK

beatsneedrhymes

As you can see from my profile, I’m absolutely no expert on this subject, but I have - today - won against a private parking company. 

It sounds like my situation was similar to yours ie on land where it states you have to have a permit; and my starting point was “I’m f**ked and have to roll over and pay up”.

But, on the advice of the proper experts on this site, I stopped, took a deep breath, and the time (you’ll need plenty of it) to research my rights and possible tactics; and I started to realise - increasingly - I had a chance to make them do the rolling over.

Obviously, I know nothing about your situation but, read the NEWBIE advice; I’m sure, so long as you do appeal it at or just before 28 days, you won’t incur the full charge - they fool you into thinking you have to pay within 14 days. 

The other point you make is around maybe finding technicalities to use against them.

Early on, from the guys in this site, I learnt a couple of important lessons a) that they - the operators - use awful, misleading and even illegal tactics to extract your hard earned money; b) that they’re pretty stupid, which means they make mistakes and, technically, it’s possible to catch them out.

My overall advice, keep your money in your pocket and fight! 

earlsdonUK

KeithP

Do they know who was driving this vehicle?

Do you know that a keeper has more protection than a driver?

You have read the NEWBIES thread and discovered that the signs need to be prominent.

Did you also read in the NEWBIES thread that if the parking company don't know who was driving and have no way of transferring any driver's liability to the keeper, they have no-one to chase?

I suggest you now need to go through every post you have written on this thread and adjust all the statements you have made that confirm the driver's identity. Use words such as "the driver parked...".

beatsneedrhymes

EarlsdonUK said:

beatsneedrhymes

As you can see from my profile, I’m absolutely no expert on this subject, but I have - today - won against a private parking company. 

It sounds like my situation was similar to yours ie on land where it states you have to have a permit; and my starting point was “I’m f**ked and have to roll over and pay up”.

But, on the advice of the proper experts on this site, I stopped, took a deep breath, and the time (you’ll need plenty of it) to research my rights and possible tactics; and I started to realise - increasingly - I had a chance to make them do the rolling over.

Obviously, I know nothing about your situation but, read the NEWBIE advice; I’m sure, so long as you do appeal it at or just before 28 days, you won’t incur the full charge - they fool you into thinking you have to pay within 14 days. 

The other point you make is around maybe finding technicalities to use against them.

Early on, from the guys in this site, I learnt a couple of important lessons a) that they - the operators - use awful, misleading and even illegal tactics to extract your hard earned money; b) that they’re pretty stupid, which means they make mistakes and, technically, it’s possible to catch them out.

My overall advice, keep your money in your pocket and fight! 

earlsdonUK

Thank you very much for your reply.

I know it's not your intention, but it's this:

'… and the time (you’ll need plenty of it) to research my rights and possible tactics…'

that perhaps puts me off the idea. I might as well work an extra day ay my (minimum wage) job, knowing that I'll definitely have the money to pay the parking charge at the end of it, than put in the same amount of time, unpaid, researching and putting into action something that's a bit of a gamble and, I'm sure, much more stressful.

You also say:

'I’m sure, so long as you do appeal it at or just before 28 days, you won’t incur the full charge - they fool you into thinking you have to pay within 14 days.'

Please could you elaborate on why this you think this is the case? Why would they break the rules that they themselves made up?

And when you say you 'won against a private parking company', did it go all the way to court? I could do without the stress of that too, you see.

Thank you again.

Le_Kirk

Read @EarlsdonUK thread here: -
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6324750/do-i-have-a-route-to-appeal-parking-charge-notice#latest

EarlsdonUK

beatsneedrhymes said:

EarlsdonUK said:

beatsneedrhymes

As you can see from my profile, I’m absolutely no expert on this subject, but I have - today - won against a private parking company. 

It sounds like my situation was similar to yours ie on land where it states you have to have a permit; and my starting point was “I’m f**ked and have to roll over and pay up”.

But, on the advice of the proper experts on this site, I stopped, took a deep breath, and the time (you’ll need plenty of it) to research my rights and possible tactics; and I started to realise - increasingly - I had a chance to make them do the rolling over.

Obviously, I know nothing about your situation but, read the NEWBIE advice; I’m sure, so long as you do appeal it at or just before 28 days, you won’t incur the full charge - they fool you into thinking you have to pay within 14 days. 

The other point you make is around maybe finding technicalities to use against them.

Early on, from the guys in this site, I learnt a couple of important lessons a) that they - the operators - use awful, misleading and even illegal tactics to extract your hard earned money; b) that they’re pretty stupid, which means they make mistakes and, technically, it’s possible to catch them out.

My overall advice, keep your money in your pocket and fight! 

earlsdonUK

Thank you very much for your reply.

I know it's not your intention, but it's this:

'… and the time (you’ll need plenty of it) to research my rights and possible tactics…'

that perhaps puts me off the idea. I might as well work an extra day ay my (minimum wage) job, knowing that I'll definitely have the money to pay the parking charge at the end of it, than put in the same amount of time, unpaid, researching and putting into action something that's a bit of a gamble and, I'm sure, much more stressful.

You also say:

'I’m sure, so long as you do appeal it at or just before 28 days, you won’t incur the full charge - they fool you into thinking you have to pay within 14 days.'

Please could you elaborate on why this you think this is the case? Why would they break the rules that they themselves made up?

And when you say you 'won against a private parking company', did it go all the way to court? I could do without the stress of that too, you see.

Thank you again.

Hmmmm, my first piece of advice is, they break their own rules any chance they can!

They don’t actually believe the rules apply to them at all!

Second, as I have said, they set things up to make you feel you have no chance, but you do - or may well do!

Third, re 14 days to give in and pay up or else! I’m not going to say this is definitely the way things are, you need to check it out on NEWBIES or ask the experts.  But my understanding is that they aren’t so much breaking their rules as omitting crucial information - guess what, on purpose!

If you are likely to go for an appeal, at or just before 28 days, they have to suspend the process and the discounted amount stands.

As I found out, no matter how justified your appeal is, they’ll reject it. Yet more tactics to make you give in and pay up.

But you can then appeal to their trade association, within 21 days after their rejection. And I’m pretty sure, if you do, the discounted amount stands (check this out).

As to what stage I reached, see link above in Le_Kirks comment (thanks Le_Kirk), but I appealed to them - which was rejected - and was getting ready to appeal to the trade association, but I then received a letter from them (today) saying - in effect - that they’d given in and had cancelled their Notice.

I used quite a few tactics and routes to challenge them, obviously I don’t know what the tipping point was, but I simply decided not to give in just because they demanded it of me.

This, for me, isn’t about the amount, it’s about not being prepared to be done over.

You will have to put some time in, a choice you’ll have to make, but there is a ton of great advice on here and some of the experts are very very helpful.

Cheers, earlsdonUK 

Coupon-mad

I have read many other threads. None, as far as I could find, make mention of someone contesting a 'fine' (again, I understand this is actually not a fine but an invoice) where the evidence against them seems so clear cut.

I thought straight away of Pace v Lengyel (see transcript hosted on the Parking Prankster's Case Law pages).

Not_A_Hope

It might be useful to show a picture of the sign on the car park. If it is forbidding in nature the PPC would have to rely on trespass law rather than contract law when invoicing you for an alleged breach of contract