Loft conversion completion certificate without approval for ground floor internal wall removal?

Orchid96

We are buying a semi-detached property built in 1950s.

Search results indicate - 

"building regulation approval

Reference: xx/xx/xxxx

Removal of chimney breasts, walls and new cloakroom wc."

This work was carried out in 2014 under current ownership, but we haven't received the building regulation completion certificate for this work.

Our solicitors requested for this but we got below response: "Not available. However, this should be revealed in your local search."

The local search only mention : -

Please contact XYZ Building Control at https://www.XYZbc.co.uk for details of Completion Certificates"

We already received BC completion certificate for the loft conversion (completed this year) of this property, but certificate explicitly mention that it only covers loft conversion work.

1. Do you think BC will provide this certification with out checking the internal wall removal on the ground floor as it can affect the structural strength of the property?

2. Also if the internal wall removal was not signed off earlier by BC, will they allow the loft conversion work?

3. Is it possible to get further details about this from BC directly ?

anselld

BC will provide the details if you contact them.  However, contacting BC would prevent you from then taking the option of an indemnity policy.  If the current owners did the work they must know if it was ever signed off or not so it would be better if they just confirmed that with a straight answer before you decide how best to proceed.

Doozergirl

anselld said:

BC will provide the details if you contact them.  However, contacting BC would prevent you from then taking the option of an indemnity policy.  If the current owners did the work they must know if it was ever signed off or not so it would be better if they just confirmed that with a straight answer before you decide how best to proceed.

BC details aren't public domain like planning ones are, so they will not give details unless you own the property. 

What appears on the certificate is only
what is written on the headline of the headline, so there could be all
sorts of work included in the headline of 'loft conversion', including wall removals.  Given that there are already two recent applications, I would assume that the work IS included in one or the other.  
 

Section62

Orchid96 said:

"building regulation approval

Reference: xx/xx/xxxx

Removal of chimney breasts, walls and new cloakroom wc."

This work was carried out in 2014 under current ownership, but we haven't received the building regulation completion certificate for this work.

I think you should throw the ball back to the vendors.  They aren't being very helpful in their responses.

It would appear that the removal of the wall you are concerned about might be included in that 2014 approval, but only the vendors will know for sure.

The usual line that it was more than 12 months ago so the time limit for enforcement has expired needs to be approached with extra care in this case as you have no evidence (so far) that the wall was removed in 2014 - and a plausible reason for the completion certificate not being issued might be that the work hadn't been completed.

Having further substantial work carried out on the property within the last 12 months also leaves you with the possibility the wall was removed during the latest round of work.

The vendors need to be a lot more transparent - about what work was done when, and why there is no completion certificate for the 2014 work.

Orchid96

Section62 said:

Orchid96 said:

"building regulation approval

Reference: xx/xx/xxxx

Removal of chimney breasts, walls and new cloakroom wc."

This work was carried out in 2014 under current ownership, but we haven't received the building regulation completion certificate for this work.

I think you should throw the ball back to the vendors.  They aren't being very helpful in their responses.

It would appear that the removal of the wall you are concerned about might be included in that 2014 approval, but only the vendors will know for sure.

The usual line that it was more than 12 months ago so the time limit for enforcement has expired needs to be approached with extra care in this case as you have no evidence (so far) that the wall was removed in 2014 - and a plausible reason for the completion certificate not being issued might be that the work hadn't been completed.

Having further substantial work carried out on the property within the last 12 months also leaves you with the possibility the wall was removed during the latest round of work.

The vendors need to be a lot more transparent - about what work was done when, and why there is no completion certificate for the 2014 work.

Thank you. We are trying to get further details from the vendors on this. 

Orchid96

Doozergirl said:

anselld said:

BC will provide the details if you contact them.  However, contacting BC would prevent you from then taking the option of an indemnity policy.  If the current owners did the work they must know if it was ever signed off or not so it would be better if they just confirmed that with a straight answer before you decide how best to proceed.

BC details aren't public domain like planning ones are, so they will not give details unless you own the property. 

What appears on the certificate is only
what is written on the headline of the headline, so there could be all
sorts of work included in the headline of 'loft conversion', including wall removals.  Given that there are already two recent applications, I would assume that the work IS included in one or the other.  
 

Building regulation approval for Removal of chimney breasts & walls was given in 2014, where as approval for loft conversion was given in 2018. Loft conversion completion certificate is issued recently, so I am not sure whether the work in 2014 will be included in this :-(

Section62

Orchid96 said:

Building regulation approval for Removal of chimney breasts & walls was given in 2014, where as approval for loft conversion was given in 2018. Loft conversion completion certificate is issued recently, so I am not sure whether the work in 2014 will be included in this :-(

I'd suggest that if the "certificate explicitly mention that it only covers loft conversion work" then it relates only to the 2018 approval, not to the case originally opened in 2014.

I believe it is possible for one completion certificate to be issued covering multiple cases, but in my experience it is usual for one certificate to be issued per case, even if all are issued at the same time. (just the way the record management system works)

Orchid96

Section62 said:

Orchid96 said:

Building regulation approval for Removal of chimney breasts & walls was given in 2014, where as approval for loft conversion was given in 2018. Loft conversion completion certificate is issued recently, so I am not sure whether the work in 2014 will be included in this :-(

I'd suggest that if the "certificate explicitly mention that it only covers loft conversion work" then it relates only to the 2018 approval, not to the case originally opened in 2014.

I believe it is possible for one completion certificate to be issued covering multiple cases, but in my experience it is usual for one certificate to be issued per case, even if all are issued at the same time. (just the way the record management system works)

Thank you for the quick response. I am not sure how building regulations works. But my main concern is about giving approval (and further completion certificate) for the loft conversion work if the internal wall removal was not signed off. Does that compromise on the structural integrity of the property?

These are the only details in the completion certificate (other than date of issue, property address and application no)

BUILDING ACT 1984
THE BUILDING REGULATIONS 2010 (as amended)
CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF WORK

DETAILS OF WORK:

Loft Conversion

DEPOSIT OF PARTICULARS:

Full Plans were deposited in respect of these works in accordance with the Building Regulations made under Section 1(3) of the Building Act 1984 on xx-xx- 2018

COMPLIANCE WITH THE BUILDING REGULATIONS:

This certificate shall be considered as evidence (but not conclusive evidence) that, insofar as the authority has been able to ascertain, the works comply with the substantive requirements of the Building Regulations.

IMPORTANT: LIMITATIONS OF THIS CERTIFICATE

This certificate only relates to the work described above and not in the case of extension or alteration or installation of fittings to any work carried out to which the Regulations did not on this occasion apply, e.g. to the existing building not affected by the extension or the work of repair or replacement of fittings, etc. and not any work carried out under a Government recognised Competent Person Scheme (e.g. replacement windows, electrical or gas installations, etc.). Separate permission may be required under the Town and Country Planning Acts.

Doozergirl

A structural engineer has to make
specifications for the loft.  If there was a problem downstairs, they'd have known about it.  

Section62

Orchid96 said:

Thank you for the quick response. I am not sure how building regulations works. But my main concern is about giving approval (and further completion certificate) for the loft conversion work if the internal wall removal was not signed off. Does that compromise on the structural integrity of the property?

In theory yes, but it depends on the variance between the assumptions made in the loft conversion design and the actuality.

For example, if the loft conversion imposes new/additional loads on a first-floor loadbearing wall, which in turn is supported by a ground-floor wall, then the 2014 design for removal of that ground-floor wall may no longer be valid.

That could become a real problem if the loft conversion designer saw a solid wall from foundations to ceiling and was unaware that the wall was going to be removed at a later date.

This is why it is important to understand the history of the projects and why the 2014 works wasn't signed off.

Essentially, starting another project before the first one was finished creates additional risk and uncertainty.  The best time to get that resolved is now - whilst the people who commissioned the work are still living there - rather than finding yourself having to try and unpick what has happened when you come to sell.

It could be something as simple as the vendors have lost the certificate and need to obtain a new one - but without their help your job will be much harder.

Orchid96

Section62 said:

Orchid96 said:

Thank you for the quick response. I am not sure how building regulations works. But my main concern is about giving approval (and further completion certificate) for the loft conversion work if the internal wall removal was not signed off. Does that compromise on the structural integrity of the property?

In theory yes, but it depends on the variance between the assumptions made in the loft conversion design and the actuality.

For example, if the loft conversion imposes new/additional loads on a first-floor loadbearing wall, which in turn is supported by a ground-floor wall, then the 2014 design for removal of that ground-floor wall may no longer be valid.

That could become a real problem if the loft conversion designer saw a solid wall from foundations to ceiling and was unaware that the wall was going to be removed at a later date.

This is why it is important to understand the history of the projects and why the 2014 works wasn't signed off.

Essentially, starting another project before the first one was finished creates additional risk and uncertainty.  The best time to get that resolved is now - whilst the people who commissioned the work are still living there - rather than finding yourself having to try and unpick what has happened when you come to sell.

It could be something as simple as the vendors have lost the certificate and need to obtain a new one - but without their help your job will be much harder.

The vendors have confirmed that in 2014 the wall between the lounge and dining room was removed. 

This was approved by the council and vendors are chasing the council for a certificate. Thank you for your support.