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architect/building errors

Hi
Hope to get a bit of help or advice on this

We are having an annexe built. We employed an architect to do the drawings and get us the required planning permission.

We now have run into a few problems.

Firstly the architect positioned the building the required distance from the neighbours boundary ( a wooden fence). However he took the boundary position from the OS without checking the site - the two don’t marry up and the building was going to be too close to the boundary. He should have done a physical check in my opinion. Without a shadow of a doubt his drawing is wrong.


Now to the builder.

The new annexe front elevation sits in-line with an existing workshop so it’s very easy to see where it needs to be position wise. When he put the foundations in I did query as to why he had sat it back 1.7 metres from the line of the workshop where it should have been. His reply was “it’s too close to the boundary”. I assumed he had tied up with the architect as it was obvious something was wrong. It appears he didn’t. 

Due to an unrelated issue we suspended the building work. The foundations are in and the blockwork is up to window height.

We then got another builder in to look at finishing the job. He has flagged up a few issues.

Most critical issue is that the builder has missed a foundation wall - the annexe is L shaped and it’s a short internal block wall to take the flat roof joists at the turn - it’s quite clearly shown on the drawing - but it’s not there and neither is the foundation. We had the architect down and his initial claim was “the builder has got it wrong” . He the spoke to the builder. The builder has  “claimed ”  that he knew about it but it was cheaper to put a beam in and that’s how he has priced it. The architect wass unaware so I assume planning won’t know either - the drawing still show the foundation.

There is a sharp drop-off in the garden and the position specified on the drawing was fine - but now the build has been pushed back there is a drop-off and no ground to put in the drainage as specified by the architect - the builder decided he is now taking the drainage out of the back of the units and fitting an external gully - no consultation with anybody. The building is to be rendered, and this will spoil the aesthetics of a nice flat white wall - we don’t want this

Again because of the reposition of the building the fall from the drainage pipes from a bathroom and utility room is insufficient. 

Bottom line is we now have a part build where it shouldn’t be, a missing foundation wall, and drainage issues

This is further complicated that since the architect and the builder became acquainted they are now doing a few more projects together - and from the content of the emails going to and fro with the architect it’s plain to see they are covering each others backsides.

At the moment we have dialogue with the architect but not the builder.

Where do we stand with this - any help would be appreciated

Thanks in advance



Comments

  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 34,020 Forumite
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    edited 7 October 2021 at 7:44AM
    Is your architect managing this build?  Are you paying them to do that?  Most people don't, so beyond the drawings they have no responsibility. 

    A beam to take roof joists is more obvious as a cost effective option than a block wall and foundation in what I presume is a single storey building.   There is always more than way of doing things.  As long as building control are happy with it upon inspection, then it isn't an issue that it doesn't match drawings.  Frankly, it wouldn't even occur to me to use a new wall with foundations to take a flat roof if there was another option.  

    Planning are not concerned with how a building is built, that is the job of building control.  Even if what is done is different to the drawings, they will still
    inspect it.  

    It's really hard to understand what else exactly has gone wrong without pictures.   If it's
    in the wrong place entirely, I'm surprised you didn't check with the architect if you thought it was okay with them.  They'd have told
    you quite quickly.   These are expensive things not to check... 
     


    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 8,653 Forumite
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    Firstly the architect positioned the building the required distance from the neighbours boundary ( a wooden fence). However he took the boundary position from the OS without checking the site - the two don’t marry up and the building was going to be too close to the boundary. He should have done a physical check in my opinion. Without a shadow of a doubt his drawing is wrong.

    ....

    The new annexe front elevation sits in-line with an existing workshop so it’s very easy to see where it needs to be position wise. When he put the foundations in I did query as to why he had sat it back 1.7 metres from the line of the workshop where it should have been. His reply was “it’s too close to the boundary”. I assumed he had tied up with the architect as it was obvious something was wrong. It appears he didn’t. 


    Nobody who knew what they were doing should be using an OS plan to design a building or other structure - they simply aren't accurate enough for that purpose.  That was not a good starting point.

    However, if you got full planning consent, where does the 'required distance' come into it?  You could build right up to the boundary if that was what you applied for and consent was granted.

    If you got full consent, you have to build in accordance with the plans (or request an amendment).  Neither the client nor the builder can take it upon themselves to move the new building around to their wishes.  The builder should know that a 1.7m variation from the approved plans would need to be referred back to the planning department.


    Most critical issue is that the builder has missed a foundation wall - the annexe is L shaped and it’s a short internal block wall to take the flat roof joists at the turn - it’s quite clearly shown on the drawing - but it’s not there and neither is the foundation. We had the architect down and his initial claim was “the builder has got it wrong” . He the spoke to the builder. The builder has  “claimed ”  that he knew about it but it was cheaper to put a beam in and that’s how he has priced it. The architect wass unaware so I assume planning won’t know either - the drawing still show the foundation.


    Where was building control?  Or rather who was responsible for getting BC approval for the project.  Changing from a wall to a beam mid-project is Ok, but someone needs to do the design work and calcs for the beam, and it seems unlikely this builder was employing a structural engineer to do that without telling you about it first.

    Having building control involvement in a project helps regulate 'on the fly' alterations like this.


    There is a sharp drop-off in the garden and the position specified on the drawing was fine - but now the build has been pushed back there is a drop-off and no ground to put in the drainage as specified by the architect - the builder decided he is now taking the drainage out of the back of the units and fitting an external gully - no consultation with anybody. The building is to be rendered, and this will spoil the aesthetics of a nice flat white wall - we don’t want this

    Again because of the reposition of the building the fall from the drainage pipes from a bathroom and utility room is insufficient. 


    Again, where's the building control involvement?

    I also agree with Doozergirl's comments.  The key question is who was responsible for overall management of the project.
  • hullensien
    hullensien Posts: 169 Forumite
    100 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    @Doozergirl
    Hi
    Thanks for response - yes it’s single storey - the internal block wall is also a dividing wall

    I appreciate the cost implication but shouldn’t have this been referred back to architect - it isn’t on the drawings that planning approved

    With regard to the position - I did check with the Builder - he told me it was ok

    He also told me there was sufficient fall on the drainage - there isn’t

    Building control are here tomorrow and I just needed to know where we stand in the first instance if there are any issues with the drawing being wrong and the fact the builder hasn’t followed the drawing. i have had a quick google and some articles advise the drawings form a contract and he hasn’t followed without consent and is therefore in breach. I’m not a builder and apart from the position that i did query, I wouldn’t know if anything was wrong until it was pointed out. To me its just a concrete base with a block wall running around the outside.

    We have had another builder and a different architect look - they have said it won’t pass


    I’ll update tomorrow following the visit






  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 34,020 Forumite
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    edited 7 October 2021 at 8:36AM
    We really can't give proper answers about this on a forum.   You have a half built building that we have no knowledge of. 

    With respect, you're also in a position where you don't seem to understand the difference in the two very separate departments at the council, how your project was supposed to be managed and I think you've also overestimated what you pay an architect to do and underestimated your own role as a result.  

    It sounds like there is an issue with the builder if they've built in the wrong place.  An annexe always requires planning permission so any changes to the positioning or outside appearance need to be run back by planning, as Section62 says. 

    As a builder, I wouldn't be running anything structural back through the architect - as Section62 says as well, it's a structural engineer that specifies steels.  

    Really, if you have not specifically
    paid an architect to project manage - which you can't have if it's built in the wrong place - then the architect's job finished when you gained planning and the initial
    building control approval.  

    The person ultimately responsible
    for ensuring that the build meets planning and building control is you.  It does sound like your builder has breached, but it's bit confused by the fact that you've allowed him to continue building it.   You'd usually use a structural engineer to specify steels but if it is a flat roof with no other load, it might have an off the shelf option.  I don't know.  

    You really need someone objective that can run over things with you in detail and find solutions to the issues.   Nothing is insurmountable.  
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
  • hullensien
    hullensien Posts: 169 Forumite
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    ok
    thanks - i will see what BC say tomorrow
  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 8,653 Forumite
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    ok
    thanks - i will see what BC say tomorrow

    I'd suggest you need to be a lot more proactive than this.

    BC will give you a thumbs up or thumbs down to the work on a technical basis (if you are very lucky they will give some pointers to changes/improvements you could make).

    But you have a more fundamental problem of the whole structure apparently being 1.7m away from where you got planning consent to build it.  The BC comments on the work so far are largely irrelevant if the planners won't agree to a variation of the plans and you have to knock it all down and start from scratch. (it can and does happen)

    And the most fundamental issue is who exactly is running the project?  If you think it is you then you've got a steep learning curve ahead of you. If you think it is the architect (or builder) then do they know this?  Either way, you need to make sure someone is in overall charge who knows what they are doing and is ensuring all the requirements are being met.
  • Mistral001
    Mistral001 Posts: 5,397 Forumite
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    edited 7 October 2021 at 3:38PM
    It all depends on who said what to whom and when.  When were you told about the problem with planning?  Did you give instructions immediately to the builder to stop the work until the problem was sorted out with the planning issue?  Did you inform the architect immediately as well.  These are crucial questions that need answers if you are to get this problem solved in yorr best interests. As has been said you will need legal advice to guide you.
  • It's really hard to understand what else exactly has gone wrong without pictures.   If it's
    in the wrong place entirely, I'm surprised you didn't check with the architect if you thought it was okay with them.  They'd have told
    you quite quickly.   These are expensive things not to check... 
     


    That is so true, but at the same time there is a reason we pay experts, and its not to micro-manage them. 

    Mine made a very basic error (door opening) and finding an ergonomic solution cost a couple of thousand pounds. I don't regret spending the money as its something that would otherwise have caused me a daily irritation.
    No man is worth crawling on this earth.

    So much to read, so little time.
  • Doozergirl
    Doozergirl Posts: 34,020 Forumite
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    edited 8 October 2021 at 6:43AM
    It's really hard to understand what else exactly has gone wrong without pictures.   If it's
    in the wrong place entirely, I'm surprised you didn't check with the architect if you thought it was okay with them.  They'd have told
    you quite quickly.   These are expensive things not to check... 
     


    That is so true, but at the same time there is a reason we pay experts, and its not to micro-manage them. 

    Mine made a very basic error (door opening) and finding an ergonomic solution cost a couple of thousand pounds. I don't regret spending the money as its something that would otherwise have caused me a daily irritation.
    Nobody is perfect,  but checking why a building is nearly 2 metres away from where it should be when the builder hasn't even discussed it with you is not micro-managing.


    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
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