Company car, ref: POFA Schedule 4

Caramac51

Hi all,

Apologies if there is another thread covering this, but I had read through the newbies thread and alternative ones, but I cannot find something that covers this:

I am trying to dispute a claim as a company car driver under Schedule 4, section 4 of POFA 2012:

The notice must be given by—

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

In my case, it was sent to me by post. The time difference between “Date of event” and “Date of issue” is 53 days! When disputing this as per the above schedule of POFA, BW Legal responded saying: as I was the named driver and not the registered keeper, POFA is irrelevant to the matter and that their client is well within their rights to issue to parking charge notice, taking all necessary steps including legal actions.

Is this true?? Is POFA “irrelevant” in my circumstances because I am a company car driver (ie not the registered keeper)?

On another hand, they’re also trying to charge £160 in which £60 of that is listed as ‘legal fees’ in the letter from them, which I’ve read in other threads to be abuse of process!! But that’s another matter, I suppose I’m trying to find the answer to my initial question!

All help appreciated. I’m borderline considering to just pay this £160 I’m getting that fed up with it.

Just to add, I’m no longer under employment with the same place of work that provided that company car as I have since changed place of work (this may be irrelevant but just so you have all the info).

Coupon-mad

Why not just read the company car section of the NEWBIES thread & use that specific company/hirer appeal (one of the links written by Edna Basher) which covers which part of the POFA is breached (not the bit you are looking at).

I’m borderline considering to just pay this £160 I’m getting that fed up with it.

Don't be daft. Even if a person loses in court the PCN is £100. And here, 99% win and love the experience of seeing how things work at their local court, and claiming costs against the parking firm. No CCJ risk. What's not to like?

Which PPC is this? Acronyms are in the NEWBIES thread too.

Caramac51

I did read that, but it refers to a lease agreement as opposed to a company car? As it is not specifically in relation to a company car driver, I didn’t know whether the dispute remains the same.

Coupon-mad

The section says 'company/hire/lease' cars, I think. Same thing, if the PPC wrote to the Company first, and were given your data as lessee of the car.

But if they are after £160 and are pretending fake 'legal fees' have been added (an abuse of process, yes) surely it's at a later stage than appeal.

Are you not actually at LBC stage as per post #2 of the NEWBIES thread?

Which PPC?

Which solicitor?

Caramac51

The parking company was Ipserv Ltd. The legal firm they have appointed is BW Legal (very rude on the phone by the way!!).

Part of the reason that I’m in half the mind to just pay it is because I’ve only just started my new job. I didn’t think it would look good if I had to ask for a day off to go to court regarding dispute of a parking charge. Assuming I don’t get to pick the court date..? Sorry if the questions sound daft, I’ve never been to court or had a situation like this before

Caramac51

Claim stage is I received a LBC. They wanted a response by the 16th Jan or they would commence a claim against me. I responded before the 16th Jan to say that the right to recover unpaid charges under schedule 4, section 4 of the POFA 2012 cannot be exercised as their client didn’t meet the criteria specified under statue.

They since responded 4 days ago saying that POFA is irrelevant as I’m not the registered keeper and that if they do not hear back from me within 7 days (which would be 3 days from now), then it may lead to further collections activity or further legal action.

Coupon-mad

The legal firm they have appointed is BW Legal (very rude on the phone by the way!!).

LOL, you phoned BW Legal thinking you'd speak to a solicitor or customer service person?! Read what MPs had to say about them:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-19/debates/2b90805c-bff8-4707-8bdc-b0bfae5a7ad5/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill(FirstSitting)

Stephen Doughty MP

''I appreciate what the Minister has said. What discussions has he had, or will he have, with the Ministry of Justice and the SRA?

Just to convey the scale of this, another firm that I mentioned, called ​BW Legal, regularly issues 10,000 county court judgments a month, and is known to have issued 28,000 in one month. A significant proportionate of them relate to parking. They are jamming up our court system, and are often totally unjustified.''

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2018-03-05/131096

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-02-02/debates/1eeeeb2b-518d-4ac9-86e4-472b59492859/CommonsChamber

''Gladstones Solicitors of Knutsford is involved in many such cases—to be clear, I am talking about the firm in Knutsford; there are other firms of solicitors that use the same name—as is BW Legal. I have been involved in a lengthy case concerning a constituent. This week, I raised concerns about such firms with the Solicitors Regulation Authority, and I am hopeful that it will take a close look at the matter and consider whether the firms are complying with the regulatory environment for solicitors, and with best practice.''

I didn't think it would look good if I had to ask for a day off to go to court regarding dispute of a parking charge. Assuming I don’t get to pick the court date..?

You get to say which dates (weeks/whole month of you like!) that you can't do and it's your choice of local court near you.

Takes half a day usually, sometimes 5 mins flat & won't be till Summer.

Sometimes they discontinue before the hearing. WELL WORTH FIGHTING.

They since responded 4 days ago saying that POFA is irrelevant as I’m not the registered keeper and that if they do not hear back from me within 7 days (which would be 3 days from now), then it may lead to further collections activity or further legal action.

Then get a SAR from the PPC to see all the letters and photos, and reply to BW Legal telling them the POFA does apply to hirer/company car drivers and their client failed to transfer liability using the prescribed documents and enclosures in para 13/14 of the POFA, and the hirer cannot be pursued.

Tell them you deny any debt as lessee/hirer, and are seeking debt advice (that last bit buys you 30 days and pushes the claim and hearing till a bit later..might suit you better).

DO NOT PAY.

Do not be that person who sponsors the scam (you'd be FUNDING it) for an easier life.

Redx

agree with coupon mad above, you get to pick your court and pout in the dates you are unavailable , which will be this summer at the very least

your company can only name the lessee , not the driver , thousands of people in this country could have been the driver. your company cannot testify in court that you were the driver, just the day to day keeper (as long as YOU have not mentioned who was driving to IPSERV etc) - a driver is not protected by POFA and can be held accountable - dont believe everything B W LEGAL say , they are low life sc@mmers

when was the incident date ?

when did the pcn arrive with your name and address on it ? what date was on it ?

the POFA timescale applying to lease/hire/company vehicles is longer, plus the agreement docs need to be with it (which almost never happens) , plus 53 days is much too long

do not speak to B W LEGAL on the phone

did B W give you 30 days notice plus include financial forms ? (or 14 days ?)

MistyZ

Have you identified the driver to the PPC?

nosferatu1001

Indeed. On your ill advised phone call, did you state who the driver was? yes or no. No elaborating here, a simple ONE WORD answer.

Castle

F.Y.I-Ipserv Ltd is 100% owned by Ipswich Borough Council, so this may not be relevant land.