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Why we should nationalise energy suppliers - not - Page 3

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Why we should nationalise energy suppliers - not

edited 30 November -1 at 12:00AM in Discussion Time
51 replies 539 views
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  • Mrs_pbradley936Mrs_pbradley936 Forumite
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    Marisco wrote: »
    I do think rail should be nationalised though, at the minute it's a right dogs dinner with too many fingers in the pie. The ticket pricing is ridiculously complicated, it should be run as a not for profit outfit for the benefit of the public.

    I think that Public Transport and utilities should be run along the lines of a Mutual - run on sound business principles and and profits reinvested.

    https://www.financialmutuals.org/owned-by-you/the-mutual-advantage/
  • snowcat75snowcat75 Forumite
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    But private companies are going belly up all the time leaving consumers in all sorts of mess. As someone points out.. if it's a loan they might do well out of it...

    meanwhile an airline company the government needs afloat to support its regional development realities is begging for support that could even end up with tax rule changes for the sector in order to deal with - private failure

    and the private company appointed last year to handle up front admin (biometrics, document scanning) for immigration is so in chaos (and not cheap either) that the Home Office is having to relax rules on time to make appointments after applications because applicants cannot get timely appointments. (And then when you do get appointment some barely trained admin clerk looks at your hoard of original documents and wonders what they're meant to do in response to your application that cost over 2 grand and can be rejected for technical omissions). Private failure.

    There's plenty private failure out there.... at least when governments run companies there seems to be some accountability in a public facing vote needing self interested politician. We've clearly had deviants operating in the energy sector like Economy Energy. We've got the government running train services to London down the east coast mainline. The private sector is just becoming a place of criminality and incompetence at the expense of public need.

    Your mistaking Quangos for proper private enterprise, there are huge differences with Quangos being the worst of both worlds.

    I did my work experience with BT when it was still nationalised it served me well, In what to avoid being a part of, There wasn't just teams that swung the lead but whole floors, actually whole buildings, and crews that there only goals were to do nothing...…
  • WillimSWillimS Forumite
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    I am sure by now there is the technology out there to cut fuel costs, but can you imagine if we had gas/electric/water/petrol/diesel all for next to nothing, it would wreck the economy, so really its all about economics than profit.
  • NewShadowNewShadow Forumite
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    There's plenty private failure out there.... at least when governments run companies there seems to be some accountability in a public facing vote needing self interested politician. We've clearly had deviants operating in the energy sector like Economy Energy. We've got the government running train services to London down the east coast mainline. The private sector is just becoming a place of criminality and incompetence at the expense of public need.

    I need to be careful right now...

    The BiB is interesting given the volume of complaints to do with lack of individual accountability when something goes wrong in - completely random example... - the NHS, which I think we can agree is the prime example of a long standing nationalised service...?

    You've suggested politicians are held accountable at the ballot-box, but politicians aren't responsible - and actually have little influence - for the day to day running of the services... Nationally yes, when you're talking about funding or commissioning; but in Trusts and Boards/CCG's? not so much.

    And the longstanding accusation there is that 'incompetent managers' will be 'shuffled around' rather than held accountable for failure: https://nation.cymru/opinion/the-welsh-government-must-tackle-the-toxic-culture-of-unaccountability-in-our-mismanaged-nhs/

    In a word, Quangoism...
    That sounds like a classic case of premature extrapolation.

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  • MariscoMarisco Forumite
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    I think that Public Transport and utilities should be run along the lines of a Mutual - run on sound business principles and and profits reinvested.

    https://www.financialmutuals.org/owned-by-you/the-mutual-advantage/
    Yes, that's what I meant, I worded it badly :o Instead of the profits going to shareholders put them back into the company. The Port of Tyne, very successful business, runs that way. Apparently it's a very good company to work for.
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  • MuttleythefrogMuttleythefrog Forumite
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    snowcat75 wrote: »
    Your mistaking Quangos for proper private enterprise, there are huge differences with Quangos being the worst of both worlds.

    I did my work experience with BT when it was still nationalised it served me well, In what to avoid being a part of, There wasn't just teams that swung the lead but whole floors, actually whole buildings, and crews that there only goals were to do nothing...…
    I don't think I did.

    What we may be mistaking is proper private enterprise in free markets with genuine competition for businesses operating cartels and necessary heavy state regulation. One good example might be LNER.... nothing really changed when they took over from Virgin East Coast except the branding.

    Yes you get hapless departments and staff doing little in private and public sector... often simply trying to look busy and justify their existence annually.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • edited 14 January at 3:51PM
    MuttleythefrogMuttleythefrog Forumite
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    edited 14 January at 3:51PM
    NewShadow wrote: »
    And the longstanding accusation there is that 'incompetent managers' will be 'shuffled around' rather than held accountable for failure: https://nation.cymru/opinion/the-welsh-government-must-tackle-the-toxic-culture-of-unaccountability-in-our-mismanaged-nhs/

    In a word, Quangoism...
    There's terrific incompetence across the board... but I've always favoured where there is accountability... and market forces alone often in the sectors we're thinking about is absolutely failing to sift good business from bad. As can be seen in the NHS... while of course politicians are not hand on managing the service the buck can stop with them. There is far too much protection for incompetence in private and public sector... the mechanics of it may vary. Perhaps that's why I can no longer work.. I sacked or drove out idiots.

    But the energy sector is a joke... significantly regulated.... cartel like behaviour (or actual cartel behaviour in some cases)... and shoddy customer service (if any at all). My last complaint to energy supplier wasn't looked at for 2 weeks because 'agent was on holiday'... suggesting he was the only person in a national energy supply company with hundreds of thousands of customers who could read my email complaint?
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • NewShadowNewShadow Forumite
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    I don't think I did.

    What we may be mistaking is proper private enterprise in free markets with genuine competition for businesses operating cartels and necessary heavy state regulation. One good example might be LNER.... nothing really changed when they took over from Virgin East Coast except the branding.

    Yes you get hapless departments and staff doing little in private and public sector... often simply trying to look busy and justify their existence annually.

    The two arguments seem to be:

    - Nationalised industry just needs to be run 'properly' by the Government.

    vs

    - Private industry just needs to be regulated 'properly' by the Government.


    Fundamentally, I'm not seeing this as a win for either side - it comes down to the individual's view as to the role of the state...
    That sounds like a classic case of premature extrapolation.

    House deposit: 25% = £32,500 Banked!
    Next Step: Complete = possibly in a few weeks = On Track On Hold
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    Goal: Keep the bigger picture in mind...
  • edited 14 January at 4:16PM
    MuttleythefrogMuttleythefrog Forumite
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    edited 14 January at 4:16PM
    NewShadow wrote: »
    The two arguments seem to be:

    - Nationalised industry just needs to be run 'properly' by the Government.

    vs

    - Private industry just needs to be regulated 'properly' by the Government.


    Fundamentally, I'm not seeing this as a win for either side - it comes down to the individual's view as to the role of the state...
    Yes.. and on your last point... I see its role as essential in protecting basic services people and business rely on. For example ensuring buses and postal services are available even where they're unprofitable but where necessary to basic life function. I see the regulation and constraints on many of the core services as strong indication they should be simply in public hands... and one reason I felt Labour manifesto was correct direction.... including (although they went about it oddly) the broadband matter since for modern civil and business function reliable connectivity is essential. My view is when the focus is on profit then providing what people need will always likely be secondary. Good places to show the impacts are where government departments use private sector in delivering their service... Visa application process may be a good modern one... where both applicants and Home Office get frustrated by the failings of a private sector company.. the customers have no choice but to use them and the Home Office has no choice but to deal with the impacts of that. Why doesn't the Home Office just do the whole job (it was until last year anyway)... it likely even has the office spaces to do it (more modern application system - document scanning/upload/biometrics) on a much bigger scale.. like through Jobcentres (off top of my head) rather than the typical libraries used by the private company. We have the ridiculous situation where desperate applicants are paying £800 for a one day Home Office service but finding after paying that they can't book their appointment with the private company to finish the application process for many weeks... if at all anywhere within a couple hundred miles.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • thepurplepixiethepurplepixie Forumite
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    Relax wrote: »
    An example of one lost opportunity the free market produced would be a water national grid ~ where water-rich north could sell to water-poor south through a series of nationally created waterways~ something no region will ever find cost-effective ~ so we now have reverse osmosis plants in London and annual droughts in the south-east

    Didn't Birmingham do something like that with the Elan Valley?
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