Keeper, but not driver

I am currently unwell and have not left the house in over 2 months. A family member occasionally uses my car to keep it running. They took a friend shopping at a retail park and spent several hours in the shops - the friend is unsteady on her feet, so walks slowly to prevent falling (no blue badge though). The driver didn’t purchase anything during the trip, only the passenger did (and has receipts covering a 2hr 40min window). Upon returning to my car they realised it was really close to 3 hours since they’d arrived and they feared a parking notice. They were relieved to find nothing attached to the car and thought that meant they were under 3 hours (or that if they had gone over slightly, they’d escaped a ticket/notice).

The first I heard of any of this was when I got a PCN through the post (from CE Service) and the driver explained all the above. I explained that car parks can have ANPR, so it can be all be automated with no notice given at the time (a process they were unaware existed!).

Driver doesn’t think they necessarily have grounds to appeal. It’s not a car park I have ever been to myself, but the driver says the signs are clear that max stay is 3 hours and there is no way to pay for more. The PCN says they were actually there 3 hours 20 minutes, so seems too long for a grace period? They said they just didn’t realise the time and accidentally went over the limit.

It’s not in my nature to not fight, but being unwell I’m not sure I have the energy or am clear headed enough to deal with the process of appealing, but just paying the £60, especially when I wasn’t even there, seems like an admission of guilt (sounds silly I know!). The driver doesn’t want to help appeal (they said they could appeal initially, but are refusing to go to court etc.) and I don’t want to make the process more difficult, but can I have the PCN transferred to the driver for them to deal with or does that just make the situation worse? The PCN does say that if I was not the driver, I can notify them of their name and address and should pass the notice to them, but it doesn’t say whether they would actually re-issue another PCN as well. Could the driver then appeal if they decide they want to or would it make the process more difficult than if I left it in my name? If they’d rather just pay, would they still be able to pay the £60 or would it go up to £100 automatically?

My apologies if I’m not making any sense! I’m really not clear headed at all!
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Replies

  • RedxRedx Forumite
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    You have 2 clear choices

    1) name the driver which should be an option on the PCN , under POFA you are then no longer liable and cel will issue a new PCN to the driver , then they can come here for advice because POFA does not protect or help them

    2) appeal as keeper and state you were not the driver due to illness. Stay as keeper throughout because if cel failed POFA you have no liability at all and do not have to name the driver

    If in future it's too much for you , then you name the driver and withdraw

    Read the newbies faq sticky thread , which includes a template for appealing , especially as Keeper , adding a line that you were definitely not the driver

    It's the third thread down from the top of the forum
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • FruitcakeFruitcake Forumite
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    At the moment the keeper is liable and needs to deal with it. The two options are exactly as described by Redx above.
    Naming the driver only works if they admit to the PPC that they were driving.

    The keeper has protections in law that the driver does not, so check very carefully to see if the NTK has met the mandatory requirements of the PoFA 2012. If they have, then there is no advantage in keeping the driver's identity secret.
    If however the NTK is not PoFA compliant then the keeper can win this at a second stage appeal to PoPLA.
    Other appeal points are also available, but a non-PoFA compliant NTK is probably the strongest.

    The first thing therefore is to compare the NTK with the dates and wording of the PoFA to see whether the keeper can be held liable or not.

    A link to the PoFA can be found in the NEWBIES, or can easily be found using a search engine.

    Common acronyms and abbreviations are given in post 5 of the NEWBIES.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • edited 29 November 2019 at 12:21PM
    Parking19Parking19 Forumite
    8 Posts
    edited 29 November 2019 at 12:21PM
    Thank you for your replies.

    I have checked paragraph 9 of the PoFA and the PCN seems to cover the points mentioned (not exact wording), except for some which don’t apply as it’s a free car park (up to 3 hours).

    Although the company the PCN is from (Civil Enforcement) is mentioned in the Newbies post as not complying, so I’m not sure.

    “Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA.”

    I’ve looked on their website and the only options are Pay or Appeal. When selecting Appeal, it first asks if you are the keeper (yes or no) and then if you are the driver (yes or no) before showing the appeal form, so you do have to tell them whether you are the driver or not before it will let you appeal. Upon selecting No for driver, it still takes you to the usual appeal form, so doesn’t then ask you who was driving instead, you still just get the appeal form.
  • Half_wayHalf_way Forumite
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    name/location of car park.
    the disability aspect is worth chasing up on with the cat park owner and the parking company
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
  • The_DeepThe_Deep Forumite
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    Driver doesn’t think they necessarily have grounds to appeal

    Almost everyone has some grounsds to appeal, ead the stickies/FAQs.

    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP after the election, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and in some cases, cancellation.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT][/FONT]
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • RedxRedx Forumite
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    So as keeper you say yes to that , no to driver , then copy and paste the blue text template , adding a note that due to illness you are definitely not the driver

    Submit it

    The driver can be named at any point up until a court case is issued , too late afterwards

    POFA is one appeal point , plus no landowner authority and poor signage and BPA Cop issues etc , plenty of appeal points

    If it fails at popla , you can then name the Driver if you wish
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • Thank you again. I understand and really appreciate your help.

    If I did later need to name the driver (appeal fails etc.), does the whole process “reset” (so to speak) and they would still be given the option to pay the lower £60 within 14 days or does that automatically expire with me and they have to pay £100 or appeal? Hopefully, they will appeal and end up paying nothing, but I want to make sure they know all their options. Thank you.
  • FruitcakeFruitcake Forumite
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    The process can be reset as long as court proceedings have not begun, so you have plenty of time to decide.

    If you are unsure about the NTK being PoFA compliant, upload a redacted version to a web hosting site such as postimages, tinypic etcetera, then post the URL here, but change hxxps to https. Someone here will change it back to a live link.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • edited 29 November 2019 at 2:07PM
    Parking19Parking19 Forumite
    8 Posts
    edited 29 November 2019 at 2:07PM
    Thank you.

    Hopefully, this has worked!

    hxxps://postimg.cc/9rWg63Sc
    hxxps://postimg.cc/McyyZHMN
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