Port of Wells - all day ticket purchased but PCN still received

newuser2011

I have reviewed the various recent Port of Wells threads (and the newbies thread) and think i know how to respond to a PCN received but not quite sure of the best response as this case is a bit different to others in that a ticket had been paid for all day parking in the morning on the day in question, and the PCN showing the offending vehicle entering/leaving is for later that day (i.e. it had returned to park a second time that day).

I'm not sure sure what the charge relates to, it just says on the PCN
"payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage"

- does anyone have photos of the signage they could post (or send me) please?

It is a company car lease vehicle. So far i have just had the Notice to Driver/Hirer PCN emailed to me today by someone in our Fleet team asking me to confirm to them if i will be paying or appealing or if i wasn't the driver. The NTH is not addressed to me personally.

A draft response is below, copied largely from someone else's post!

Dear CE Ltd

RE: PCN No. xxxxxxxxx

I would like you to know I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on xx May 2019 at the Port of Wells Car Park, Wells-Next-The-Sea.

I challenge this 'PCN' as lessee of the car and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address listed below:

My street
My Town
My Postcode

I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact Lex Autolease again regarding this PCN.

The car park at the subject location "is Not relevant land" as stated under "paragraph 3 (1) c" of the 2012 Protection of Freedom Act - (c) any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.

The car park is governed by "Wells Harbour Revision Order from 1994" that indicates the harbour land is under statutory control,

General byelaws
9 - (k)for regulating the movement, speed and parking of vehicles within the harbour estate;
“the harbour estate” means the docks, piers, wharves, quays, berths, roads, bridges, sheds and other works and conveniences and the lands, buildings and property, of every description and of whatever nature, which are for the time being vested in or occupied by the Commissioners for the purposes of the harbour; “

Civil Enforcement Ltd can not take any action on these tickets as they have no right to operate on the land.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either offer me a POPLA code or cancel the charge.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.

Yours faithfully,
My name


Does that sound ok as an initial response to the PCN?

Or, and I think you will probably say not to, should I be stating that an all day ticket was purchased for the vehicle (the ticket has not been retained, would you believe it was thrown out this morning, with the letter arriving this afternoon!!!) and if there was something wrong with the ticket then why has a PCN not been issued for the morning's parking?

Thank you in advance.

Coupon-mad

Does that sound ok as an initial response to the PCN?

No, because of the fact that you are not the registered keeper:

It is a company car lease vehicle.

Why are so many posters missing the Company/hire car appeals in the three links near the end of the first post in the NEWBIES thread (NOT THE 'FLEET MANAGER' ONE, OF COURSE).

So far i have just had the Notice to Driver/Hirer PCN emailed to me today by someone in our Fleet team asking me to confirm to them if i will be paying or appealing or if i wasn't the driver. The NTH is not addressed to me personally.

I would email back and say you will be appealing but not admitting as to who was driving, and as such you need the Fleet Dept to transfer liability to you by naming you as the LESSEE/HIRER, using the slip at the bottom, giving your name and address as lessee, so that the Parking scammers will then have to send you your own PCN, as you cannot appeal the Fleet firm's one.

newuser2011

Thanks Coupon-mad for your response.

I do apologise if I have not got everything absolutely correct from the Newbies thread. But there is a lot of (great!) information on there and whilst you may understand all of this very easily given your experience, for many of us we may hit a few bumps along the way to understanding everything fully – so please bear with me (and many other inexperienced posters).

The slip at the bottom is just titled ‘payment slip’ – is that where you mean for the fleet manager to respond with my details as the vehicle hirer?

Presumably it would be better if I could persuade the fleet manager to use the fleet manager letter suggested by Edna Basher (on 13 August 2018) linked in the Newbie thread to say:
- confirming who the vehicle hirer is [ABC] (but not the driver)
- stating no evidence is provided for the penalty
- non-compliance with Sch 4 of POFA and that CE has forfeited any right to claim any unpaid parking charges from [ABC] as the vehicle’s hirer and keeper
- request within 28 days CE’s acceptance that it cannot and does not hold ABC liable for the parking change and that it is a matter for CE and the driver.

Or me just write to them and get them to write to me as the vehicle’s hirer and start the process from there using one of the other templates? Alanjuk’s post from Sept 2017 seems to obviate the need to get my fleet manager involved.

Am I right in thinking that you do not think it worthwhile (or likely to succeed) if I was to explain that an all day parking ticket had been purchased (and used once in the morning and then again in the afternoon, with the PCN being issued for the afternoon parking) and so not PCN should be payable?

Very much appreciate your assistance and apologies again for the inexperience in understanding some of the nuances.

Redx

get the fleet manager to name you as day to day keeper (hirer or lessee) , using the edna basher template if it is appropriate (in writing and signed and dated as fleet manager) - THEY DO THIS TO REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM ANY LIABILITY UNDER POFA , even though POFA does not apply on non-relevant land such as a port (where bylaws apply)

the fleet manager cannot name you as driver because they do not know who the driver is or was, so cannot legally say that anyway (it would be assumption)

I could have been the driver on the day, so keep it that way

the parking company needs to write to the correct keeper (you under POFA) and then you must ensure that the case is about legal arguments and not what happened on the day

if the PPC failed keeper liability in the first place, then what happened on the day is irrelevant

its a hurdle race, let them jump each hurdle first before showing them the winning post


ps:- the FAQ,s say these 2 simple mantras

Q - ''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.

A - NO IT ISN'T. YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS. FORGET THE DETAIL, MOST CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.


Q - ''My vehicle is lease/hired/company car and I'm not the registered keeper. Is the advice different?''

A - YES, PLEASE SEE THE SECTION ABOUT LEASE/HIRE/COMPANY CARS AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST*

as said above , FORGET THE DETAILS of what happened on the day


your fleet manager has had 6.5 years to get to grips with POFA, in theory so you dont have to UNTIL the pcn is in your own name , they get paid to do this and to follow the BVRLA guidelines so they have no excuse for passing it on, they should be following the law called POFA and doing what the PCN said, to name the day to day keeper (you)

The_Deep

It sounds to me as if you are over-thinking this. If it is not relevant land, and they do not know the identity of the driver, most of this is irrelevant, that point alone should kill this stone dead.

newuser2011

Thank you both Redx and The Deep.

I will do as you say Redx.

The Deep - I probably am overthinking it. It seems like it is much more just about process rather than detail - just seems bizarre to me when day to day my life is built around fact. But great if this stone can be killed as you say.

I will revert once i have a response and/or POPLA code.

Thank you all once again.

Redx

as above , do not overthink this , edna basher manages a fleet and does this for a living to stop their company being overrun with fake invoices and charges

its not your fault that your fleet manager fails to do their job properly and comply with the law called POFA plus any contract laws

as a keeper/hirer/lessee, your first task is to ensure that the PPC has complied with the contract laws and any bylaws and POFA before accusing you of owing them money , this includes timescales , NTH notices and POFA compliance like hire docs etc

if they fail to do so legally, then anything flowing from the event is a moot point

its like the police having to prove somebody is probably guilty with evidence before the CPS even issue a charging notice

fail to issue the offender their rights and warnings under PACE and everything else collapses no matter if the allegation is valid or not

Beckham got off on a speeding notice because it was a day late in the post, not because of him speeding or not , it never got as far as proving or disproving the allegation due to a failed legal process

FrankCannon

I have posted some images on Imgur ;

hxxps://imgur.com/a/hFm4xfx

I would say that you have fallen foul of the Ts & Cs which state that you must pay within 10 minutes of arrival, which you didn't do on your second trip. I fell foul of the 10 minutes rule and picked up a PCN despite the fact that the tariff gives you parking from 8am to midnight.

The images are taken from the evidence that CEL sent to POPLA, who rejected my appeal, unsurprisingly, and the last 2 are from another forum user as CEL didn't provide any images of the entrance signs as seen from the road. The images show the following ;
1). The Ts & Cs posted at the car park entrance with the sign facing into the car park behind the sign facing the B1105 road ( The Quay ),
2). The car park adjacent to Beach Road,
3). The car park adjacent to the B1105,
4). The sign on the pole installed for the ANPR camera,
5). The car park has a separate area for permit holders adjacent to Beach Road,
6). The entrance to the permit holders car park from the pay and display car park,
7). A wide view of the car park entrance,
8). The pay and display machine adjacent to Beach Road,
9). A map of the car park,
10). The sign at the entrance of the car park. It is perpendicular to the B1105, and won't be seen by most motorists approaching from the east. Note that it instructs users to buy a ticket within 10 minutes of arrival. I believe that this was changed recently to 15 minutes. Also note that the red and white sign mentions a "penalty notice" - isn't that overstating their authority ?
11). The sign facing the B1105 at the entrance to the car park.

newuser2011

Thank you so much for the photos Frank, much appreciated. However, I don’t understand why I would be caught by ‘pay within 10 mins or else’ when I already have a valid ticket?!


All – a member of my (presumably uninformed) fleet team have told me that they won’t write to CE to tell them that I am the vehicle hirer. Before I start spending hours reading the legislation, do you know where it says that they need to do this?

If they are really stubborn and I can’t persuade them to send an Edna letter to CE, do you agree that I should send AlanJuk’s template (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5703794/civil-enforcement-and-a-lease-car-cancelled-the-pcn)

One thing which occurred to me is the timing of the PCN. The “offence” was 14 May, PCN ‘issue date’ 12 June, date received by the vehicle hirer from company 18 June. Would they be ‘out of time’ according to POFA or other regulations anyway – I can then include this in my letter to them if so.

The_Deep

I would say that you have fallen foul of the Ts & Cs which state that you must pay within 10 minutes of arrival, ...

this imo is possibly an unfair term in a consumer contract, (Consumer Rights Act). What if there is a shortage of spaces, a queue to pay, or the pay and display machine is faulty?

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

FrankCannon

Their Ts & Cs state that a ticket must be purchased within 10/15 minutes of arrival, so taken literally you didn't meet those terms by not buying a second ticket. This breach of contract is being used to catch out people waiting for space to become available, those going off to find change for the machines and those familiar with the car park, but not noticing the change to charging after 6pm that came in last year,

In your case, the vast majority of people would consider it to be very unfair as you already had an all-day ticket, but we are not dealing with reasonable people. They are very successful at fooling, scaring and scamming people into giving them millions of pounds every year. As The Deep says, it's probably an unfair term, but there are more knowledgeable people than me on this forum who can advise.