VCS and BW Legal - Have we killed our chances of winning?!

_llama

Hi,


Firstly, I'd like to thank you all for the amazing help and support these forums provide. Although I have only registered here today, my case with BW Legal has been going on for almost a year and the information here has been invaluable in getting me this far.


I am now at the "Letter of Claim" stage with them, after they have pretty much ignored the responses I have previously provided to their myriad "Final Notice" letters.


My partner received a parking ticket relating to his vehicle from VCS outside his workplace back in 2016. The car park is controlled, and the car was authorised to be parked there. The driver placed their pass on the dashboard, but in their haste to get to work must have put it face down when they left the car.


This is where I think we may be in trouble...


The following day my partner emailed VCS explaining the situation in the (naïve) hope they would understand. In the email he used phrases such as "I placed my pass on my dashboard...", "I do have permission to park here...", "I use the space daily..." - basically using a lot of "I's".


They replied asking "Please provide as applicable, either the driver or the keeper's name and postal address" to which he responded giving his own full name and address.


Following this they requested a copy of his permit, which he sent, and they then rejected his appeal (as expected!) as, in their words, "the fact remains that you failed to display in accordance with signage...blah blah blah...".


So at this point my question is has his initial naivety that these companies might be sensible and understanding human beings ruined any chance we might have at beating this should it go to court? Has he basically admitted that he was the driver and effectively given away his "chase the driver not the keeper" defence?


Again, thanks for any and all advice you may be able to give at this point, and I am happy to provide any more information you might require.


Thank you.

Umkomaas

Revealing the identity of the driver is far from fatal. There are plenty of other defence points to use should it come to a court case.

Please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 which gives you very detailed guidance on how to deal with a LBC, right through to any court hearing.

In readiness for any court case, I would get a written statement from your partner's employer that he was employed by the company on that date and that he had full rights to park where he did, with or without a permit.

Fruitcake

You need to get pictures of the signs as well. You also need to find out from your partner's employer if their contract with the scammers allows them to issue court proceedings in their own name.
This agreement will have primacy of contract over any made up rules the scammers may have, so you need to get sight of it, or a statement that they can't take employees to court.

Also, what is your partner's employer doing to get this cancelled? He should be kicking up a stink and letting everyone know what a blood sucking scam (MP's words) this is.

Please also complain to your MP an Sir Greg Knight MP about this unregulated scam. Show the comments below to your partner's most senior manager and union rep if they have one.

These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

_llama

That's great news - thanks so much.


I have spent a lot of time reading through the FAQ's previously and they have been extremely valuable in the responses I have sent to them.


Unfortunately my partner has since changed jobs so cannot easily get hold of a statement from his old employer. He actually left shortly after receiving the ticket and before BW got involved.


I am aware its impossible to know for sure, but as I haven't gone through this before, is it more likely than not that this will end up at court from here? I am more than happy to take this to court if necessary but I am still hoping they might get bored and leave me alone.


Finally, would it be best to reply to them using their own forms or separately via email? Obviously I would prefer email as it removes the chances of Royal Mail losing the letter or them simply claiming it has never been received - We have always replied by email previously.


Again, thanks so much for the help!

_llama

Fruitcake wrote: »

You need to get pictures of the signs as well. You also need to find out from your partner's employer if their contract with the scammers allows them to issue court proceedings in their own name.
This agreement will have primacy of contract over any made up rules the scammers may have, so you need to get sight of it, or a statement that they can't take employees to court.

Also, what is your partner's employer doing to get this cancelled? He should be kicking up a stink and letting everyone know what a blood sucking scam (MP's words) this is.

Please also complain to your MP an Sir Greg Knight MP about this unregulated scam. Show the comments below to your partner's most senior manager and union rep if they have one.

These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):


''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

Hi Fruitcake,


Thanks for the info.


Unfortunately my partner left employment with the company before BW got involved so may struggle to get some of the info there.


It is a shared car park between a few businesses too so is there an easy way you know of to view the contract? Would BW have to provide it on request before the case?


Thanks again!

Umkomaas

I am aware its impossible to know for sure, but as I haven't gone through this before, is it more likely than not that this will end up at court from here? I am more than happy to take this to court if necessary but I am still hoping they might get bored and leave me alone.

Whether this will actually get to court is somewhat of a second order question. BWL are robo-claims issuers, so what/how you respond to them is likely never read, just a box will be ticked that you've responded, then the computer will roll out the next 'ratcheting up the threat' letter, no doubt each one mentioning 'court', 'CCJ', 'credit score trashing', 'attachment of earnings', 'employment loss'.

Once on this conveyor belt you have to assume court looms and go through every necessary step as if it will happen. But the reality is, that with a well orchestrated response to their process and a solid defence, the case is often dropped shortly before it ever reaches the courtroom - but it can go right up to the wire, and you need to play along with it.

Hoping 'they might get bored and leave you alone' is wishful thinking - boredom is something an automated process does not suffer.

In many, many cases, should one get to court, BWL make such a complete lash-up of things that Judges sling their cases out. Regular poster beamerguy keeps an eye on BWL failures and has this thread constantly simmering on or near the front page of the forum:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5672664/bwlegal-the-list-of-failures-growing

VCS are mildly litigious - here is their 'record' over the past couple of years. Over 220,000 tickets issued, 535 court cases.

http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/Vehicle_Control_Services.html

Finally, would it be best to reply to them using their own forms or separately via email? Obviously I would prefer email as it removes the chances of Royal Mail losing the letter or them simply claiming it has never been received - We have always replied by email previously.

If not using email, anything posted to a PPC (or BWL) should be sent first class, with a free Certificate of Posting from your Post Office counter (guard the certificate carefully - you may need to rely on it some time in the future). With the certificate your letter is deemed (by law) to have been delivered by the second working day, unless the intended recipient can prove otherwise (let them try!). No need for expensive 'Signed For' post, because if they won't sign for it (fairly typical PPC trick), they can prove categorically that it was not received.

HTH

_llama

Hi Unkomaas,


Thanks for that - really useful and reassuring to know that how few court cases they have actually issued! Would love to have figures on how many of those claims have actually been successful!


I'm not sure if you (or anyone else who may have any experience with these situations) could offer any advice here but if court proceedings were issued would my partner have the option to pay their "fine" then and avoid the proceedings? He is a little nervous about the situation - I have had to persuade him several times already not to "just pay them and be done with" - if I could give him the reassurance that he could always just pay them later if it does go to court and he gets himself worked up about it!


Again thanks for the advice, you are all amazing!

Umkomaas

The claim can be settled at any time up to the point of opening the door to the Judge's room.

But there's no need to be nervous about the small claims court, it's not a criminal court. It's more than likely the hearing will be in a small ante room with your partner (and you if you wish), the claimant's representative and the Judge sitting around a table. The Judge doesn't wear a wig and gown for these hearings.

Some things to consider if your partner starts to 'wobble' and thinks of paying.

1. Even if he lost in court, the amount currently being sought by VCS is likely to be reduced by the court (it certainly won't be any more - there are, for example, no runaway legal fees to worry about in the small claims court), so there's nothing to lose by defending this fully.

2. In the event of a loss, he won't be getting any 'tongue-lashing' from the Judge, he would simply be determining if VCS has a legitimate case and would determine how much was owed to them.

3. Should a loss occur, there will be no credit-trashing CCJ, provided what the Judge determines is owed is paid by the deadline he gives (usually 1 month).

4. Did you know that you can speak on behalf of your partner if he is worried about doing that himself? Google 'Lay Representative'. Or you could sit and assist him by passing appropriate paperwork to him at the relevant stages of the hearing - a 'McKenzie Friend' (again Google will explain in more detail).

So hopefully some of your partner's concerns assuaged there. But we're a good way away from court, so none of this may ever happen, but we never say never!

_llama

Thanks so much for the info Umkomaas,


I'll craft a reply this afternoon from the FAQ, although this will pretty much just mirror most of the previous responses and requests I have sent to them.


I'm definitely going to reply via email rather than fill in the ridiculous forms they sent with the "Letter of Claim".


Again, thanks for your advice!

Fruitcake

Their forms will be completely biased so should never be used. Rebut their claims. Sate that the contract between the landowner and the scammers does not permit them to take anyone to court, and tell them to prove otherwise.

Getting your partner's former employer's side in writing is the best idea if possible, but whether it does or doesn't say anything about that, by stating you believe it doesn't, they now have to prove that it does.

It's the same with everything. Prove there is a contract. Prove the signs are adequate. Prove the permit was not on display. Prove the permit is not valid even if it is upside down, etcetera.

Coupon-mad

Would love to have figures on how many of those claims have actually been successful!

We see people win 99% of the time here (still true). Two cases were lost out of hundreds last year and two so far lost this year (and one of them was because the defendant admitted who was driving - ouch...I see you did...). Not fatal - but yes, awful (sorry) naive and it won't help you.

Anyway we still confidently assist people even when the driver has been admitted and STILL see the phenomenal win rate here, consistently for some 18 months now.