JSA (C) - You can still make a single person claim outside of Universal Credit

LittleMax

It has taken me 2 days, 4 separate appointments at the job centre and an hour on the phone to the Universal Credit helpline, but finally DWP have conceded that I can claim new style contribution based JSA without my partner having to make a joint claim for UC.

My partner works full time and I am unemployed. I wished to claim for JSA based on my contributions. I do not wish to claim any other benefits as based on my partner's earnings we would not qualify.

I was directed online to the Universal Credit application which I completed as a single person. At the id check I was advised I must add my partner to my claim. This then resulted in him being directed to make an appointment to attend for an id check. He is unable to do so as he is working, and unwilling to do so on a point of principle.

7 separate DWP employees have told me over the course of yesterday and today that he must make an appointment and attend otherwise my claim will be stopped. I even called the UC helpline and have made a formal complaint about this, and was still advised that there was no way round it. Now that it is UC it can only be a joint claim and he must attend.

Finally during my commitments appointment today, the 8th member of staff that I was talking to, advised that I could make a separate claim for New Style JSA(C). They had to print off a claim form which I completed and I had to do another id check (my third!). Then they basically completed everything using the old system that they used to use. Quite a few members of staff gathered round to 'learn' what they have to do.

So don't take no for an answer. If you are claiming contribution based JSA only - they can complete a claim outside of UC that is a single claim and means your partner does not have to complete a claim.

My formal complaint is still lodged and it will be interesting what the outcome is - I will keep this thread updated. I'm not seeking comments just posting this for info as I wish I could have found this out earlier.

TELLIT01

I suspect part of the reason for the confusion is that different JCs have moved to handling UC claims at different times, and my understanding is that the training has been condensed more and more because they need staff processing the claims quickly. That is not an attempt to justify what has happened to you, but to give a little background.
Claims for Contribution based ESA and JSA are still processed on the old legacy systems. They are not part of the UC processing system. We (DWP employees) asked why Conts only claims aren't included in UC and were just told "because they aren't"! Nobody could give a valid reason for their exclusion, particularly as Conts based claims are by far the simplest to process.
We couldn't get an answer either as to what the process would be if a person was claiming as Conts only and then had to change to Income Related later on. Would they have to make a completely new claim or was there a mechanism for automatic transfer? Again no answer at the time the question was asked.

Darksparkle

TELLIT01 wrote: »

I suspect part of the reason for the confusion is that different JCs have moved to handling UC claims at different times, and my understanding is that the training has been condensed more and more because they need staff processing the claims quickly. That is not an attempt to justify what has happened to you, but to give a little background.
Claims for Contribution based ESA and JSA are still processed on the old legacy systems. They are not part of the UC processing system. We (DWP employees) asked why Conts only claims aren't included in UC and were just told "because they aren't"! Nobody could give a valid reason for their exclusion, particularly as Conts based claims are by far the simplest to process.
We couldn't get an answer either as to what the process would be if a person was claiming as Conts only and then had to change to Income Related later on. Would they have to make a completely new claim or was there a mechanism for automatic transfer? Again no answer at the time the question was asked.

Maybe because it would be another step to separate the taxable and non taxable elements of contributions based benefits where moved into UC?

JSA income based moved into UC making it non taxable but JSA and ESA contributions based remain taxable. The other benefits moved to UC where also non taxable.

That's just a complete guess on my part though.

LittleMax

TELLIT01 wrote: »

I suspect part of the reason for the confusion is that different JCs have moved to handling UC claims at different times, and my understanding is that the training has been condensed more and more because they need staff processing the claims quickly. That is not an attempt to justify what has happened to you, but to give a little background.

But my job centre was one of the first to switch after the pilot branches. Back in December 2013 I had to do a reclaim as had been claiming up to September 2013. They had just switched to UC then.

TELLIT01 wrote: »

Claims for Contribution based ESA and JSA are still processed on the old legacy systems. They are not part of the UC processing system.

And even staff on the national helpline failed to advise this. When I have made a complaint on the national line, about my partner having to provide id they have patiently transcribed it but could have resolved it straight away by advising that a claim could be made in the old system.

TELLIT01 wrote: »

We (DWP employees) asked why Conts only claims aren't included in UC and were just told "because they aren't"! Nobody could give a valid reason for their exclusion, particularly as Conts based claims are by far the simplest to process.

The staff at my JC said it was because that developed the system simply forgot about conts only claims.

What I don't understand is why they don't just add an option on the UC page for making a conts only claim and then direct me into a single claim.

TELLIT01 wrote: »

We couldn't get an answer either as to what the process would be if a person was claiming as Conts only and then had to change to Income Related later on. Would they have to make a completely new claim or was there a mechanism for automatic transfer? Again no answer at the time the question was asked.

I hope I don't get to find out.

To be fair - I have found all the staff to be incredibly helpful, and they are clearly hampered by terrible systems and lack of training. But it is frustrating, and many people would not have kept asking the same question. I wonder how many couples have just produced id for a joint claim and are in the UC system where they don't need to be. I was close to getting my partner to just go in and take id anyway.

LittleMax

Darksparkle wrote: »

Maybe because it would be another step to separate the taxable and non taxable elements of contributions based benefits where moved into UC?

JSA income based moved into UC making it non taxable but JSA and ESA contributions based remain taxable. The other benefits moved to UC where also non taxable.

That's just a complete guess on my part though.

This would then mean that had I proceeded with complying with them over getting my partner to do id verification, that at some point they would have pulled my claim from UC and got me to complete the form for JSA(C) anyway?

TELLIT01 - is this the case? Are there any people who get JSA(C) element only in the UC system, or do they all get sifted out at some point?

I feel a further complaint coming!

Darksparkle

LittleMax wrote: »

This would then mean that had I proceeded with complying with them over getting my partner to do id verification, that at some point they would have pulled my claim from UC and got me to complete the form for JSA(C) anyway?

TELLIT01 - is this the case? Are there any people who get JSA(C) element only in the UC system, or do they all get sifted out at some point?

I feel a further complaint coming!

There is no contributions based element of he UC system. Contributions based benefits did not and are not moving to UC.

TELLIT01

LittleMax wrote: »

(1)But my job centre was one of the first to switch after the pilot branches. Back in December 2013 I had to do a reclaim as had been claiming up to September 2013. They had just switched to UC then.

(2)The staff at my JC said it was because that developed the system simply forgot about conts only claims.

(3)What I don't understand is why they don't just add an option on the UC page for making a conts only claim and then direct me into a single claim.

(4)To be fair - I have found all the staff to be incredibly helpful, and they are clearly hampered by terrible systems and lack of training.

I've added numbers against the points raised to make responses clearer.

1. I wonder how many of the staff who got the fuller version of the training back in 2013 are still working on UC in that office? My understanding is that current training is compressed into well under half the time they were given originally. Even allowing for some streamlining of the training that seems a massive reduction to me, although I saw the same thing happen with ESA. I was in one of the first groups trained for ESA and got 6 weeks training, whereas recent intake got 2 weeks!

2. Sadly, that's entirely possible. From my experience there is totally inadequate preparation for new systems. When I worked on IT support and installation in the private sector, full functional specification would be done before a single line of coding was written. Within DWP they seem to make it up as they go along, with massive changes to functionality during production and little effective testing before going live.

3. That's using logic. Again something DWP management don't seem to be good at.

4. Couldn't agree more with that statement. The vast majority of staff in both JC and processing offices want to do a good job. The pressures on them to 'hit the numbers' really is the root cause of many of the problems.

In response to "Are there any Conts only JSA claims on UC", the truth is that I don't know but suspect they are weeded out at processing level and moved onto the legacy systems. Whether that requires a new claim to be made, I don't know.

p00hsticks

TELLIT01 wrote: »

2. Sadly, that's entirely possible. From my experience there is totally inadequate preparation for new systems. When I worked on IT support and installation in the private sector, full functional specification would be done before a single line of coding was written. Within DWP they seem to make it up as they go along, with massive changes to functionality during production and little effective testing before going live.

You're showing your age now.... the 'making it up as you go along' is the 'agile' methodology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development

TELLIT01

p00hsticks wrote: »

You're showing your age now.... the 'making it up as you go along' is the 'agile' methodology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development

I do know all about Agile. There is a big difference between adjusting / modifying a system to make it work better or add functionality, and what I saw. That is to say initial systems which barely functioned at all and where every modification seemed to result in more bugs.
Even with something like Agile there needs to be a framework of requirements to start with. Without that there is no way to know if the system (a) addresses the requirements or (b) is actually fit for purpose.