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Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks)

edited 9 October 2018 at 10:41AM in Green & Ethical MoneySaving
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  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Some interesting articles from Cleantechnica yesterday:

    Floating wind is a great option for installs around coastlines were the seabed drops too quickly for conventional deployments, and this applies to an awful lot of countries.

    World’s Largest Floating Wind Turbine Launching Soon In Portugal
    20 kilometers off the coast of Viana do Castello, Portugal, is about to be the new home to the largest floating wind turbine in the world, an 8.4-megawatt (MW) ABS-classed offshore wind turbine. This is continental Europe’s first large-scale floating wind farm. A belief is that this renewable installation is ushering in the Golden Era of wind, especially offshore wind.


    This is an example of shifting economics where RE is displacing FF's simply because it's a better/cheap option.

    Steady, Reliable Wind Power Wins Over Coal-Crazy Missouri
    File this one under W for When You’ve Lost Missouri. Coal still provides the most juice for the state’s electricity grid, but wind power is the golden ticket to a brand new steel recycling plant. The plant’s owner, North Carolina-based Nucor, tapped Missouri partly on account of access to a long term, competitive rate for wind-sourced electricity. Wait — since when did steel mills run on clean power?


    Nice article looking at what is needed / how we can get to net zero.

    Greta Sails Home, + Common “Net-Zero Emissions” Questions & Answers
    Urgency is the issue in Earth’s predicament, according to the science — 11 years, some scientists and environmental activists exclaim. The urgency has one activist sailing in a zero-emissions, genuinely “carbon-neutral” Transatlantic trip over the Atlantic rather than flying over. The urgency has other activists sitting on older bones in hard jail cells protecting Fire Drill Friday’s activism on Climate Justice. The World Resource institute agrees with activist Jane Fonda’s efforts.

    Kelly Levin and Chantal Davis writing for the World Resource Institute (WRI): “The latest research is clear: To avoid the worst climate impacts, global greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions will not only need to drop by half in the next 10 years, they will then have to reach net-zero around mid-century.”
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • 1961Nick1961Nick Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Here is a perfect example of the rude and obusive posts that the three Amigos like to make. They attack me, whilst pretending there is some 'God given right' to post science denial on a Green & Ethical thread/board. The game they play is so silly, and I'd suggest fundamentally rude as they should be playing it on a suitable board/site where their views can be appreciated.

    This thread/board is probably the furthest from one where such 'alternative facts' should be posted.
    Try taking a few deep breaths Mart.:)
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400
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  • edited 17 November 2019 at 4:01PM
    JKenHJKenH Forumite
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    edited 17 November 2019 at 4:01PM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Can I suggest, as a way to clean up this thread, that those that don't believe in AGW, or have 'a beef' with RE, storage, BEV's etc, or feel some need to defend Big Oil / the FF industry, start their own thread where such discussions can take place.

    It might seem unfair, but I truly see little point in discussing the reality (or not) of these issues, in the same way I don't wish to discuss the negatives (or not) of cigarettes.

    RE is a good thing, it will expand, it will naturally squeeze FF's, and it will inevitably benefit from the negative fallout against the FF industry / FF's as we move forward, denying this, or having to pushback on denial is simply a waste of time now, so respect for this thread would benefit everybody.

    Thank you.

    Wouldn’t it be simpler just to keep FF discussion off the thread full stop? Keep it about renewables and there will be a lot less discord. If you introduce your thoughts on !!!!!! then some people will find it contentious and respond. You can’t have a thread on a forum where one person is allowed to post his/her views on a subject yet others aren’t.

    You know your FF posts are going to start a ruck so if you really want to clean the tread up put them on a different thread.

    Supporting RE is a positive thing that most people are happy with. Let’s stick to that. Repetitive posting and getting excited about legal action against oil companies for something they did 30 years ago just makes you sound like an Eco zealot or a Marxist. Fine if that is what floats your boat but don’t pretend it is anything to do with the future roll out of RE and please don’t subject the rest of us to your fundamentalists views.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs:) )
  • EricMearsEricMears Forumite
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    The title of this thread is "Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks)".

    I can't really see how anyone would want to discuss energy issues that they don't consider green or ethical in the thread. Nor indeed do I see any need to react to any such issue if raised by someone else. And how on Earth can anyone justify discussing historical issues on a 'news' page ?
    NE Derbyshire.
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  • edited 17 November 2019 at 5:38PM
    zeupaterzeupater Forumite
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    edited 17 November 2019 at 5:38PM
    EricMears wrote: »
    The title of this thread is "Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks)".

    I can't really see how anyone would want to discuss energy issues that they don't consider green or ethical in the thread. Nor indeed do I see any need to react to any such issue if raised by someone else. And how on Earth can anyone justify discussing historical issues on a 'news' page ?
    Hi

    I totally agree .... If any news related to RE is raised then it's pretty much inevitable that there'll be mention of the effect of change on the FF front, after all that's one of the major drivers behind RE and therefore the reasoning for FF proponents to attempt to divert & control the narrative and stall development timelines ...

    Reality dictates that seeing that energy consumption is directly related to demand & available capacity the effect of more demand being satisfied by increased RE capacity will be a causal impact upon FF generation .... whatever the reasoning for anyone maintaining a generally anti-RE position may be, the facts seem to convey that change is both inevitable and extremely popular, especially so when RE solutions are now highly competitive with legacy energy supply ....

    Attempts to control RE narrative through closing down mention of the related impact on FF sector is simply ridiculous as it runs against logic .... it's really as simple as when accepting that the answer remains at 10 but not recognising that the calculation is moving from 9+1 to 8+2 to 7+3 ... etc , therefore as one component of supply increases well above that of change in demand there's a relationship that can't be ignored or considered, so how can a position of closing down discussion be logical other than in a strategy of narrative 'ownership' & control through argument & misinformation?

    As the current decade started the argument was certainly recognised but well under control of the FF sector, but as the years progressed and RE technologies have rapidly become competitive the balance of public position has changed in favour of RE to an extent where argument for FF over RE is now particularly unpopular .... As more and more people build upon their awareness of clean energy and the beneficial impact it brings, the general resistance to change continues to breakdown and the argument against RE & for FF is being progressively lost ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
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  • JKenHJKenH Forumite
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    EricMears wrote: »

    I can't really see how anyone would want to discuss energy issues that they don't consider green or ethical in the thread. Nor indeed do I see any need to react to any such issue if raised by someone else. And how on Earth can anyone justify discussing historical issues on a 'news' page ?

    I can’t argue with that Eric and I suspect practically everyone will agree with that sentiment. I doubt Mart will give up on his campaign against Big Oil but I will endeavour to be the bigger man and ignore his anti FF posts in the future and let everyone else ‘enjoy’ them for what they are.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs:) )
  • JKenHJKenH Forumite
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    I totally agree .... If any news related to RE is raised then it's pretty much inevitable that there'll be mention of the effect of change on the FF front, after all that's one of the major drivers behind RE and therefore the reasoning for FF proponents to attempt to divert & control the narrative and stall development timelines ...

    Reality dictates that seeing that energy consumption is directly related to demand & available capacity the effect of more demand being satisfied by increased RE capacity will be a causal impact upon FF generation .... whatever the reasoning for anyone maintaining a generally anti-RE position may be, the facts seem to convey that change is both inevitable and extremely popular, especially so when RE solutions are now highly competitive with legacy energy supply ....

    Attempts to control RE narrative through closing down mention of the related impact on FF sector is simply ridiculous as it runs against logic .... it's really as simple as when accepting that the answer remains at 10 but not recognising that the calculation is moving from 9+1 to 8+2 to 7+3 ... etc , therefore as one component of supply increases well above that of change in demand there's a relationship that can't be ignored or considered, so how can a position of closing down discussion be logical other than in a strategy of narrative 'ownership' & control through argument & misinformation?

    As the current decade started the argument was certainly recognised but well under control of the FF sector, but as the years progressed and RE technologies have rapidly become competitive the balance of public position has changed in favour of RE to an extent where argument for FF over RE is now particularly unpopular .... As more and more people build upon their awareness of clean energy and the beneficial impact it brings, the general resistance to change continues to breakdown and the argument against RE & for FF is being progressively lost ...

    HTH
    Z

    Once again I find myself agreeing with you. I would though just like to take this opportunity to point out that there has been consistent misrepresentation (not by you) of my attitudes to !!!!!! and RE and I would like to set the record straight.

    This is what I posted a little while ago in response to an article (posted by Mart actually, so no, I don’t disagree with everything he posts :)) not to proceed with two new coal plants in Africa - post#3615.

    While I am a great supporter of what !!!!!! have done for us in the past and may do in the immediate future I would be surprised if there is an investment case for any new FF plants anywhere? Because I am an optimist I see RE being rolled out an ever increasing rate and any new FF generation plant will surely be uneconomic/redundant in 20 years time.

    New technologies develop at an ever increasing rate - look where wind and solar were 20 years ago and something new may also come along. Who can predict the future of energy technology and prices in 20 years time? I’m pretty certain however it won’t include FF as primary production (back up maybe). Africa nations have huge RE potential - look at the Sahara for PV - to not only generate but export power. The only fly in the ointment is the geo-political situation which across Africa is very unstable and that might dictate a policy of nation state energy independence.


    Now that may not fit with the image projected by others of my attitude to !!!!!! but that is the reality. I support what !!!!!! have done for us in the past but I see and support a very reduced role for them in the future - that apparently makes me an ‘FF apologist’.

    As far as UK roll out of RE is concerned I have expressed an objection to onshore wind in locations close to habitation but support all other technologies. (I will admit that wind turbines can look majestic on a barren moorland but not a few hundred yards from houses).

    On a personal level I have embraced RE technology with the purchase of solar panels and ASHPs.

    As far as EVs are concerned I am excited by the technology and potential but feel they may still be a few years away from being acceptable to everyone because of range issues and the inadequacies of the charging structure. I am simply being pragmatic. If there are negatives I feel it is appropriate on a forum which might influence an individual’s decision to buy an EV to point them out, not pretend everything is rosy. The negatives were not sufficient in my own situation, though, to put me off taking the plunge and buying one.

    Similarly if I see downsides to the roll out of other RE technology (eg grid balancing with expansion of renewables) I believe it is reasonable to discuss them.

    As an analogy, if someone is a member of a single marque motoring forum (eg Lotus, as I was in the past) is it not reasonable to discuss the downsides of ownership as well as the joys?

    I hope this will help anyone, who has been brainwashed by the continuous claims that I am a ‘denier’, to see through the FUD.

    While I can’t speak for Nick (another of the amigos) I know he has solar panels, batteries, ASHP and, when his current car lease comes to an end, he is planning on buying a Tesla so again I believe his attitudes have been misrepresented.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs:) )
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    1961Nick wrote: »
    Try taking a few deep breaths Mart.:)

    Nick, what is the point of your constant baiting, is science denial really a 'hill worth dying on'? I believe countering denial, disinformation, spin and lies is, but that is really for a separate thread. If you want to argue all of your old denials, or new ones, then let's do so on a new and more appropriate thread, perhaps a more appropriate board, but you will achieve nothing here other than continuing to spoil it for all.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    Attempts to control RE narrative through closing down mention of the related impact on FF sector is simply ridiculous as it runs against logic .... it's really as simple as when accepting that the answer remains at 10 but not recognising that the calculation is moving from 9+1 to 8+2 to 7+3 ... etc , therefore as one component of supply increases well above that of change in demand there's a relationship that can't be ignored or considered, so how can a position of closing down discussion be logical other than in a strategy of narrative 'ownership' & control through argument & misinformation?

    HTH
    Z

    I couldn't agree more. Attempts to control/dictate what can be said in favour of RE, even if it is to the detriment (naturally) of the FF industry, is ridiculous. Whilst open discussion of issues where there are multiple options and choices is great fun, there simply is no alternative reality (nor facts) to AGW, the climate crisis, the actions of the FF industries to delay action through disinformation.

    Challenging facts and reality on this thread benefit nobody but those that would like to disrupt the the thread itself and spoil it for those who are interested in G&E energy issues. If the move to RE is detrimental to FF's, then that's simply a fact that needs to be accepted - moaning about it on here benefits nobody and changes nothing.

    So, once again, can I suggest that those that wish to post pro FF arguments, or post information from climate denial sites/articles, or deny science, or spread disinformation, please do so on their own thread.

    I don't believe that this is any great hardship.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    EricMears wrote: »
    The title of this thread is "Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks)".

    I can't really see how anyone would want to discuss energy issues that they don't consider green or ethical in the thread. Nor indeed do I see any need to react to any such issue if raised by someone else. And how on Earth can anyone justify discussing historical issues on a 'news' page ?

    Thanks Eric, and I do actually agree with you, however, given the name of the board and thread, and the staggering importance of AGW and the climate crisis, not challenging the dis-information could appear as acceptance/condonation of the claims made, by general readers who will not be aware of all the discussions that have taken place in the background.

    I can't win either way, whether I ignore or challenge the claims made, but at least I can hold my head up by not choosing the appeasement route.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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