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Green, ethical, energy issues in the news (last 2 weeks)

edited 9 October 2018 at 9:41AM in Green & Ethical MoneySaving
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  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    I'm not convinced, especially with the rise of Trump and others who are pushing a climate change denial program based on an argument that we pay more for Green energy, and who are gaining traction with this argument.

    I watched Cowspiracy last night and even environmentalist like Greenpeace are refusing to tackle the World's biggest polluter - the livestock industry - because of fear f losing corporate sponsorship and getting dragged through the courts by the huge meat industry lobby groups. Livestock farming and it's associated problem with water usage, pollution from their feces creating dead zones in lakes and seas, use of land for growing their feed, destruction of the rainforests to allow them graze is destroying the planet yet everyone conspires to ignore it.

    Instead we are shepherded to look at 'fixes' like installing renewables, when the main problem goes unchecked.

    Yep, it's a mess, and fighting people like Trump will mean things take longer, and therefore the cost/impact will be worse, but we will win. Even in the US where Trump and his team are trying absolutely everything to prop up FF's, RE is winning out. And when Motor Trend puts a Tesla as the best medium sized sports sedan, it's game over for the ICE too.

    Regarding meat, I've kinda been looking forward to insect based 'meat'. But we may find that lab grown protein, and plant based products win out:

    Most 'meat' in 2040 will not come from dead animals, says report
    Almost half the world’s crops are fed to livestock, but only 15% of the plant calories end up being eaten by humans as meat. In contrast, the report says, cultured meat and vegan meat replacements retain about three-quarters of their input calories.
    But just to be clear, I'm not suggesting we aren't facing a near disaster, just that we will do the right thing (possibly for the wrong reasons) in time to reduce the disaster by a few percentile points.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • GreatApeGreatApe
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    No one will do anything. As we see in France when the Prez put a tax on diesel, people will get up in arms about anything that negatively impacts their lifestyle or increases taxes or bills. The earth is doomed because everyone is too selfish and self absorbed.

    Even people on here and other sustainable/green forums I subscribe to are all about the payback and not about the positive impact of installing green tech.

    I really find it all a bit disappointing :(

    humanity and earth will be absolutely fine

    You shouldn't force your hobby and extreme views onto everyone its your hobby and interest not an actual crisis

    Plus there isn't much more to do for electricity its more or less solved with what has been built and what is under construction or committed to.

    The next stage is heating needs to be electrified and even the hobbyists like yourself and many others here will balk at the idea of paying 15p for mostly clean electric vs 4p for NG

    And not only will you need to pay for that differential but you will also need to pay for that differential to be affordable by 'the poor' so add another 1/3rd on top of that difference to cover your neighbors bill too

    Oh and you (directly via prices of goods/services) and indirectly via taxes (government bodies like the NHS/Schools) will also have to pay for this differential in the goods and services you buy to meet the other 2/3rds of heating that is not house heating
  • zeupaterzeupater Forumite
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    ... Instead we are shepherded to look at 'fixes' like installing renewables, when the main problem goes unchecked.
    Hi

    But even that isn't the main problem .... moving backwards towards the root cause we have a level where governments spend tomorrow's earnings up front and then encourage population growth & inflation to balance their position, then there's the root cause .... population size & growth ...

    If the future of humanity (not the planet as it will eventually recover!) is doomed then it's down to whoever replaces their own existence on more than a one-for-one basis ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • 1961Nick1961Nick Forumite
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    But even that isn't the main problem .... moving backwards towards the root cause we have a level where governments spend tomorrow's earnings up front and then encourage population growth & inflation to balance their position, then there's the root cause .... population size & growth ...

    If the future of humanity (not the planet as it will eventually recover!) is doomed then it's down to whoever replaces their own existence on more than a one-for-one basis ...

    HTH
    Z
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?

    In the end, the planet may have to 'decide' enough is enough, and make the environment so inhospitable that further expansion is not possible....or even reduce the size of the human population.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
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  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    1961Nick wrote: »
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?

    It's already been addressed, and we seem to have reached peak child*. The problem is that the population will still grow considerably further due to the higher numbers of young simply living longer than before.

    *The population is roughly 7bn, with 2bn in the 0-15 age group, 2bn in the 16-30 age group, and 1bn in the next 3 age groups, 31-45, 46-60 & 61-75.

    The stability in the first two age groups will remain, however as the world population lives longer the world population will grow as those 2bn steadily move into each of the other age groups and a further 1bn make it intp the 76-90+ group. Total approx 11bn.

    The main drivers to control birth rate, was the expansion of education for young girls and women, both sexual education, and general education, since girls suffer the most from deprivation of education in the poorest communities. Whilst many countries, especially in parts of Asia still have higher birth rates than are sustainable, populations such as in the EU balance these out as they now have slightly negative birth rates.

    So the problem is clearly one of population growth, but just like AGW having a lag between CO2 levels and climate impacts, we now face the same problem of waiting for a relatively stable birth rate to finish impacting on population, mainly due to better health/medicine leading to longer life expectancies.

    To impact the future population total, and prevent us reaching 11bn, we would now have to implement negative birth rates (less than 2 and a bit per woman), but then we also have to consider the economy as it becomes top heavy with less young workers and more older retirees. No simple answer, but the natural adoption of western world slightly negative figures might be a very, very long term solution. Till then, it is what it is, and we have to adjust to cope with 11bn. Probably 11bn vegans!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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  • 1961Nick1961Nick Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    ....... populations such as in the EU balance these out as they now have slightly negative birth rates.

    Once migration as added, I believe the population of Europe is still growing?
    Probably 11bn vegans!
    Heaven help us!:D
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400
    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
  • silverwhistlesilverwhistle Forumite
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    As an ex-employee I've got a decent wedge of SSE shares, but I'm still pleased to see that they'll be closing Fiddler's Ferry coal fired power station next year as it can't compete with gas and RE.
  • zeupaterzeupater Forumite
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    1961Nick wrote: »
    Once migration as added, I believe the population of Europe is still growing?


    Heaven help us!:D
    Hi

    Last time I looked the overall continental population was rising at a fractional rate and this was mainly due to inward migration, however there was general internal population drift towards the west, particularly NW ...

    Obvious to say, the north westerly drift results from an economic pull factor, both personal improvement and national economic policy, which if controlled at destination would have considerable impact on various governments economic strategy on which past & current expenditure is based, for example Germany actively encouraged a rapid growth in inward migration to plug a predicted serious shortfall in manpower to support economic growth which has resulted in serious political pushback by much of their population ... the same happened in the UK over a longer period, the result of which is now pretty apparent to both population & politicians alike!

    As long as HM Treasury base expenditure on future economic growth & link economic growth on population expansion as opposed to driving productivity improvement there's little incentive for any government to restrict immigration to any serious degree, that's essentially why any stated targets are effectively meaningless ... improving productivity needs central strategy & investment whilst increasing population through inward migration just needs someone to encourage others to take their eye off the ball!

    Concerning CO2 emissions & the net zero announcement, following the counterpoint to the above, I suppose that a future government always has the option to meet it's target by encouraging many of us to move to more pleasing climates in our latter years, exporting our carbon footprint alongside other forms of policy-embarrassing product, such as recycling waste ... :D

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    1961Nick wrote: »
    Once migration as added, I believe the population of Europe is still growing?

    That has nothing to do with world population, that's just an issue of global population shifting. If I recall correctly Italy has, or had a massive problem, with a birth rate down in the 1.4's. Even with immigration, and higher birth rates among immigrants (taking the national average up into the 1.6's) they faced an economic disaster, and had to launch all sorts of programs to encourage people to have children.

    If you are concerned about EU population and migration, then you'll have to stop making excuses about tackling AGW, and get on with it, as economic migration and refugee's will boost our numbers massively as large parts of the warmer world become unliveable, or crops can't be grown reliably. Yet another cost of AGW, that makes the expense of tackling it, less than the cost of inaction ...... a simple decision for any true economist.

    There's no reason why we can't provide adequate energy for 11bn people whilst being carbon neutral. Food is a bigger problem, but I'm sure we'll manage with better programs, less land used to grow crops for meat production, and less food waste. But there is no choice, we're gonna hit 11bn, whether we like it or not, so whilst population is 'the problem' it's one we can't really tackle anymore than we currently have.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • pile-o-stonepile-o-stone Forumite
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    1961Nick wrote: »
    And there we have it..."population size & growth" as the root cause. I doubt there are any politicians brave enough to suggest that this is something we should address?

    In the end, the planet may have to 'decide' enough is enough, and make the environment so inhospitable that further expansion is not possible....or even reduce the size of the human population.

    Maybe we’ll have runaway global warming like Venus and end up with a dead planet.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
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