Need some advice asap re very messy landlord breach of contract.

Debz87

Sorry a few other comments seem to have popped up that I never saw previously.

We just don't want to do anything wrong and the solicitor would perhaps want things to get messy so they could take our money? We do not have money to throw at this, we have effectively lost thousands of our own money we put in hoping after time we would get back but his has now been cut short so I have been running my business working 7 days a week and not earned a wage yet as been making sure the rent is covered, we have had to top this up.

We are desperately looking for another premises but these opportunities do not come up very often hence why we went for this!

My boyfriend owns his own flat but we rented that out and can't get that back yet, plus to move back to the flat would be difficult if we continue our business at another premises within the same area we are now which is what I need to do to try and keep my clients so it hasn't all been a complete waste of time.

We had stayed amicable with the landlord but they have continuously lied to us and tell us what we want to hear and each week that goes by we discover something else that affects us.

We have seen we have legal cover on one of our insurances so will be calling them tomorrow as no answer currently.

Honestly I'd have loved to have not paid the rent but as we don't yet have a place to move onto I don't want anymore awkwardness than is necessary, really don't want any complications to make it look as if we have breached the contract.

We are waiting to hear about another premises but it is extremely bad timing for potential new place due to a death in the family so as desperate as we are we are trying to be considerate and give a bit of space.....

LeoTLion

I appreciate you are in a tough situation and I do have some sympathy.

But, having looked at the advert for the yard, I think you may struggle to get a result in your favour if you take legal action. It is advertised as a competition/training yard, not a livery business. It also states in the terms and conditions that checking on what permissions exists are the responsibility of the purchaser.

I do feel you have been misled, but as a previous poster has stated, you should really have done more checking before 'leasing' the premises. I know this isn't what you want/need to hear, but unfortunately it is the truth.

This is why I suggested staying as amicable as possible with the 'landlord' and make finding new premises a priority.

CIS

We had it put into the contract that the council tax was included in the price which they had no problem doing and even had a form to fill in for council tax at the same time the letter arrived wanting to inspect the property.

Clauses like this mean nothing for council tax purposes - they may help if there was a small claims/county court claim against the landlord but council tax liability is determined in legislation, not be virtue of any contractual agreements. That being said , unless is the property was banded for council tax purposes then no council tax would be charged on the property until it was banded.

[Deleted User]

It seems to me that you are trying to run a business but are operating with a very emotional bias. This is knocking holes in your business. You invested money in premises knowing full well that after 6 months the lease could be stopped.., so that was always a big risk. You didn't alter your business model and run the premises in a more economical way until a longer term lease was signed, you went whole hog and invested money without knowing if you'd ever get a return. Now you have found out you can't run the business on the premises so that's a double blow.

Then you are advised to not pay rent.., but do , then there's a business you might be able to move to but instead of thinking how you can make a casual tactful enquiry to feel the water you just say no, there's been a bereavement, we won't make any enquiries at all. For all you know, the family might be grateful for the income at this time! They may also slam the door in your face.., but that won't kill you or them if only a tactful enquiry.

I am sorry, I think you might be better off just saying this isn't for us, I'm better off finding paid employment doing what I love and not taking the risks running this kind of business entails. However low paid the job, its gotta be better than working for 7 days a week for no pay, and losing thousands on another investment.

I know this may seem a slap in the face, but its time to look dispassionately at the situation and asking if its really worth it.

mrginge

LeoTLion wrote: »

It is impossible to be in breach of a contract that is void. How the matter is resolved will depend upon, at what point, the contract became void.

If it is declared illegal at formation, then the law will take the view that the contract never existed.

If the solicitor suspects this to be the case, then the advice not to pay additional rent is correct, given that no contract exists requiring the tenant to pay rent.

Presumably then, if there is no contract, the OP has no right to occupy?
I don't know, just asking.

Bossypants

deannatrois wrote: »

It seems to me that you are trying to run a business but are operating with a very emotional bias. This is knocking holes in your business. You invested money in premises knowing full well that after 6 months the lease could be stopped.., so that was always a big risk. You didn't alter your business model and run the premises in a more economical way until a longer term lease was signed, you went whole hog and invested money without knowing if you'd ever get a return. Now you have found out you can't run the business on the premises so that's a double blow.

Forgive me, but this strikes me as rather harsh. I don't know about England, but 6 months is a fairly common starting period for commercial leases in other places I've lived, the reason being that, if the business fails to take hold (and 6 months is generally a pretty good indicator), the last thing the lessor would want as they try to pick and pick up the pieces is to be on the hook for a long lease.

And we don't really know how the OP has run their business since January, but we do know that any new business venture demands a leap of faith (and money), and especially something like a livery business, where you're entrusted with the care of other people's (very expensive, sometimes very sensitive) animals is not really something you can do half-hog. I mean sure, if the OP went right ahead and invested in a state-of-the-art speaker system for the arena or something, then that might have been a bit silly, but if we're talking about general improvements to bring the buildings and equipment up to scratch, that would have been a pretty crucial step to getting in customers in the first place.

As far as I can see, the OP hasn't done anything wrong or even fool-hardy, apart perhaps from not listening to their solicitor.

On that note, OP, I can understand why people who haven't had many dealings with them sometimes mistrust the legal community, but your solicitor is there to advise you on the best course of action for you, not themselves. They have a legal and ethical responsibility to do so, in the same way that a doctor has a legal and ethical responsibility to advise you on the best course of treatment for you, not the one which will get her the most money. Of course there are sharks in every profession, but this is a complicated situation and IMO the first thing you need to do is find a solicitor you can trust and follow their advice, because you are in over your head here (as most of us who aren't legal professionals would be).

Debz87

I already had an existing business that has been running for a year that I built up and due to various reasons wanted to move it and when the place we are renting came up it seemed perfect in location and with the facilities, sadly it was a little too far for my existing clients to want to send their horses so I had to start again.
We had some clients follow short term for training but we were looking for permanent liveries which can take some time and due to it being just after xmas that we moved in and the fact that there were a few rumours going around about who was running the yard as I wasn't known in the area it took longer than expected.
Our lease actually is for 2 years but with the option for either party to end the contract after 6, we had maintained a good relationship with the landlord and we had both discussed being happy to carry on.
I am now nearly full up so just breaking even and starting to have money left over and then this happens.
The landlord may well want to carry on but it wouldn't be allowed on the same basis it has been.
A training yard is a commercial business as the horses need to be in livery to be trained and my full intentions were known as well as our contract saying the use for the yard covers livery.
The solicitor said it's likely we could fight this ourselves and has offered to write us a letter with the correct wording but things have progressed negatively since we spoke to the solicitor.
We have repaired fencing that was held together with tape and chains and repainted buildings etc, it was more time spent than money but we needed to make the improvements to help get people in as it looked run down as soon as you entered the yard.
I appreciate all that has been said and I expected some negative posts which are of course relevant, I have just never heard of such a mess in my life and don't understand how someone can get away with this.
We ideally want a proportion of money back to put us in a similar position we started in, we have our deposit back and maybe the landlords expected us to then not pay as we had nothing to lose but it just doesn't feel right and I am just very keen after all of this that has happened not to create anymore problems.
Maybe that was right or wrong, we just thought by sticking to our part of the contract that if this does go to court that it will look like we have tried to do all we can to do the right thing.

catshark88

do not expect any flexibility from the NFPA. They take bureaucracy to whole new levels and can be particularly rigorous with equestrian aspects.

LeoTLion

If you owned the property, you could use the yard as a competition/training yard for your own horses. But you don't, so therefore you are in breach of planning law, because you are carrying on a business there.

You keep referring to your contract, but a contract cannot be formed if it requires the performance of an illegal act, which operating a business from that premises appears to be.

Therefore, in the eyes of the law, no contract existed.

If no contract existed, you will be unable to claim damages from the other party for your loss, so you will have no possibility of getting any of the money back that you have paid out.

This is why I suggested that keeping things amicable might be your best course of action, if the 'landlord' is willing to give you money back, then take it, because there is no guarantee that a court would award you anything. Plus, it takes a very long time to even get to court and then there are the costs to factor in.

This is, a worst case scenario and I accept that there are other factors that a court would need to consider, but it could the outcome. Which is why I suggested you need to speak to a solicitor who specialises in contract law (and not just get freebie advice from a call centre provided by an insurance policy)

lincroft1710

Unfortunately you are in a "lose, lose" situation.

The landlord can, according to the terms of the tenancies, legally ask you to leave after 6 months. I cannot see that he would owe you anything in terms of your time and money spent on repairs, unless pre-agreed.

If you claim no contract exists and continue to occupy, but pay no rent, you could be deemed a squatter and also be prosecuted by the council for contravening planning law.

Again as previous posters have pointed out, you did not do due diligence regarding planning etc, as advised by the agents, so you can't expect compensation for something you failed to do.

If there is no hope of the current usage being regularised by the planners, then I would suggest you find new premises asap. You will now have a solicitor's bill to add to your financial woes, which may have been more money down the drain.