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Adverse Possession - Lessee to council land has passed away

Hi,

Apologies in advance but this might be a bit long winded

But anyway, here goes;

In the late 70s my parents moved into a house in a cul-de-sac of 5. Adjacent to these 5 houses was land owned by the then British Rail.

One of the home owners licensed (or leased) the entire strip of land for a peppercorn rental. This peppercorn rental was then split between the 5 houses (making my parents a sub-lessor of the land).

Sometime in the very early eighties (not sure exactly when), the land was either sold or granted to the local county council and the peppercorn rental agreement was subsequently extended.

In the late 90s, the county council boundaries were redrawn and the land transferred to the new local authority. The peppercorn rental agreement continued as before (but overtime the rent had increased from the initial £25 p.a. to £85 p.a.)

However, in 2007 the original main lessee (or licensee) passed away. In 2008 my mother apparently contacted the local authority to find out who she should pay rent to or how she could purchase the land. I say apparently as I have no record of her contact with the local authority.

18 months later, in 2010 she received a reply from the local authority stating that she could purchase the land for approximately £17,000 or continue the license on her own for approximately £1,700 per annum.

I know that she was going to contact the local authority to request a site visit as she felt the value was too high. Unfortunately, my mother passed away in August of the following year, passing the house on to me and I’m unsure whether this site visit took place.

Considering amount is for 600 square metres of land that has no obvious use (i.e. allotments or building use) I feel that the value the local authority has associated to the land is far too high. If the land could be classed as top notch farmland, a value closer to £900 would be more accurate (based on data from Savills).

The land has been maintained and fenced off and used for a vegetable patch what must be over 20 years.

There is no way I’m prepared to pay what they have asked and the authority not been in contact since 2010, I’m planning to leave the issue well alone and go for adverse possession in a few years time

I’m not sure whether the authority have registered the land or not (I’m pretty sure they would’ve unless they’ve been glaringly negligent). I plan to submit a request for a SIM next week to find out.

Apologies if I’ve gone into too much detail, but because of all the land transfers and timings it all seems a bit complex to me.

I’d like to know what the possible options are available and whether anyone has had a similar experience.

I’ve read the basic guide on the .gov.uk website, but I’m not an expert in legalise.

Thanks in advance
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Comments

  • DTDfanBoy
    DTDfanBoy Posts: 1,704 Forumite
    tadgh_99 wrote: »
    There is no way I’m prepared to pay what they have asked and the authority not been in contact since 2010, I’m planning to leave the issue well alone and go for adverse possession in a few years time

    Unless your definition of a few years is hugely different to mine you don't stand a chance ;)
  • Depending on whether they've registered the land or not. If they have, then a few years will be 6. If they haven't then it will be 8 (10 & 12 year eligibility).

    Perhaps I should have said a number of years instead of a few?
  • Davesnave
    Davesnave Posts: 34,741 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 16 November 2014 at 3:03AM
    Value is dependent on many factors.

    A few years ago, I sold a piece of land just over 1/4 of that size for £20k. It was not suitable for anything other than 'garden.'

    That was the price I asked from others, who wanted the land to extend their garden space. Eventually, they were prepared to pay it, although they first tried to make comparisons like you've done with farmland. Without wishing to be rude, that's irrelevant to a town/village situation.

    The council's price may or may not be reasonable, bearing in mind that this plot could be divided and sold off, much as mine was. I'm only adding my 2 pence worth to put this in perspective.

    Nowadays, I own a couple of fields and there's no way I'd sell those at £6k an acre. Again, they're attached to a house and their value is therefore much higher.
  • moneyistooshorttomention
    moneyistooshorttomention Posts: 17,940 Forumite
    edited 16 November 2014 at 7:32AM
    Personally, I doubt your chances of stealing the land. It has had rental paid on it for that 20 years you mention (albeit at a peppercorn level). Also confirmation has been made by the house-owner to the Council that you know it's their land. As my squatter neighbour next door has obviously realised you have to lie through your teeth and claim that land you know very well belongs to someone else is "yours" in order to try and steal it from the rightful owner.

    If you do decide to try and steal it, then be prepared for the Council to find a way to make life as awkward as they possibly can for you at any chance they get as "punishment".
  • I agree with money - as your mother effectively acknowledged the land was not hers (by paying rent/seeking to pay rent) any claim for adverse possession will, I believe (and not legally trained so could well be wrong), only run from the point you inherited the property after the estate was settled. It would definitely be worth confirming or otherwise this point.
  • Dave,

    Sounds like you've made some wise investments and reaped the rewards. Kudos to you.

    The patch of land I'm referring to can't even be classed as garden. The vast majority of it is a 1:1 gradient, with some of it being 1:2 at best.

    The plot could indeed be divided and sold off. But to whom? It has no use to anyone.

    It can't be built on as it separated by a public bridle path and the nearest road is probably about 3/4 of a mile away. The cost of putting in infrastructure would be prohibitive (for the authority or a developer)

    It can't be assigned as allotments by authority as, again, there is no access to it apart from the bridlepath.

    The land has absolutely is of no use to the authority or developer at all. It is only waste land.

    I do believe that farmland value is relevant as that is nearest classification I can go on (can't really base it on commercial land values) and on the opposing side of the bridlepath is farmland.

    The only reason I want the land is for security purposes. The border is less than 5 metres from the main bedroom. The area has no lighting and should it be reverted back to its original state, then there would be no fencing or physical border. I really don’t fancy having all and sundry wandering across the patio as I’m getting dressed in the morning.

    I can’t imagine that the land would add any value to the property as it is.
  • Money,

    Thanks for the input and whilst I can totally empathise with your squatter situation (never a nice position to be in) I would assume from your stance that the squatter has not approached you to with a view to buying the land.

    My mother was more than happy to negotiate with the authority, but the values they came up with were ludicrous for what the land could be used for (see my post in reply to dave). She was open to a dialogue with the council, but they never replied (apparently, as I have no copies of correspondence).

    Stealing (or theft) is illegal. Adverse possession is completely legit and has been going on for years. Because of your situation, I think you are accusing me of trying to steal from a moral perspective. If we look at it morally, the authority increased the annual rent by 2000% per cent. Who is stealing from whom?

    Perhaps if I managed to get the land under adverse possession, it would be "punishment" for them being so greedy!

    I think accusing me of trying to steal the land is a bit harsh (and a tad slanderous to be honest). I am open to negotiate with them (unlike your squatter I assume), but can't as that would reset the clock for the 10 or 12 year eligibility criteria.
  • Tricky,

    I might take a lead from your moniker. As I have not actually seen any correspondence (I was only told this) I might take it from the point when I know the original lessee passed away (2007). I’m not to know that she’d spoken to the council am I? ;)
  • Well...you've made up lots of justifications to tell yourself in your own mind for what you want to do anyway.

    None of us know what the Council might wish to use their own bit of land for in 20 years/50 years etc time and that is their decision to make.
  • Davesnave
    Davesnave Posts: 34,741 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    I understand a bit better now where you're coming from with this, as it does sound as if the price quoted to your mother for rent or purchase was rather unrealistic.

    I cannot advise on adverse possession, as I've only ever claimed a right of way by unchallenged usage over 20 years. From the outset, I engaged the services of a young solicitor, so there would be no doubt about when I started to use the access. She was later able to verify this when I sold the land, but ironically, the people who were buying didn't want it! Like you, they were worried about security.

    I eventually sold the access to two neighbours for the princely sum of £1. :rotfl:
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