Tax on Savings to rise?

zagfles

cepheus wrote: »

A fair amount goes into paying into the NHS (in place of health insurance) and the cost of policing and the forces. Perhaps its the work tax which should be abolished, and the word 'national insurance' added for the complete contribution, which more accurately describes what it is used for.

Rubbish, "insurance" doesn't describe it at all. Insurance is something you pay according to the likelyhood and likely amount of any payout. Insurance is something that you can't claim on if you don't pay the premiums. A tax is something you pay according to criteria unrelated to the likelyhood of claiming anything back.

Nobody's entitlement to healthcare or policing depends on whether they pay NI or income tax. Those who pay higher amounts aren't any more likely to "claim". NI and income tax are paid according to earnings, not according to likelyhood of payout. Very few NI benefits are earnings related, and there are often means tested alternatives which those who've paid no contributions are entitled to.

What kind of insurance pays out if you don't pay the premiums? What kind of insurance premiums are related to earnings while the benefits you can claim are mainly flat rate?

NI is a tax. Like income tax, just like council tax, just like VAT. It's about time the govt are honest about it and started calling it a tax.

talexuser

Earnings tax certainly covers our contributions, perhaps the employer contributions should be re-named "Employment tax"?

cepheus

zagfles wrote: »

Rubbish, "insurance" doesn't describe it at all. Insurance is something you pay according to the likelyhood and likely amount of any payout. Insurance is something that you can't claim on if you don't pay the premiums. A tax is something you pay according to criteria unrelated to the likelyhood of claiming anything back.

Nobody's entitlement to healthcare or policing depends on whether they pay NI or income tax. Those who pay higher amounts aren't any more likely to "claim". NI and income tax are paid according to earnings, not according to likelyhood of payout. Very few NI benefits are earnings related, and there are often means tested alternatives which those who've paid no contributions are entitled to.

What kind of insurance pays out if you don't pay the premiums? What kind of insurance premiums are related to earnings while the benefits you can claim are mainly flat rate?

NI is a tax. Like income tax, just like council tax, just like VAT. It's about time the govt are honest about it and started calling it a tax.

Not true, NHS insurance is the ultimate insurance. You get it simply by being born here, you are insured against being unhealthy, a form of insurance against having to claim. In fact it's the only sort of insurance worth having.

It's as if prior to being born you were told, sign here! For insuring what? Everything! How much? As much as you can reasonably afford. Where is the small print? There isn't any. You won't find that on the High St!

Commercial insurance, is really not anything of the kind, it's more pay a company a whopping fee to even out the costs, since they will claw any claims plus a massive profit through higher premiums. It requires more administrators to work through the law and exclusions etc rather than employ medical staff. That's why the American system costs so much.

See the Veil of Ignorance. What would you choose not knowing which of the 7 billion you will be, who might be healthy or chronically ill. A National health service, or private healthcare, which the average world citizen wouldn't be able to afford?

The veil of ignorance blocks off this knowledge, such that one does not know what burdens and benefits of social cooperation might fall to him/her once the veil is lifted. With this knowledge blocked, parties to the original position must decide on principles for the distribution of rights, positions and resources in their society. As Rawls put it, "...no one knows his place in society, his class position or social status; nor does he know his fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities, his intelligence and strength, and the like".[5] The idea then, is to render obsolete those personal considerations that are morally irrelevant to the justice or injustice of principles meant to allocate the benefits of social cooperation.

For example, in the imaginary society, one might or might not be intelligent, rich, or born into a preferred class. Since one may occupy any position in the society once the veil is lifted, the device forces the parties to consider society from the perspective of all members, including the worst-off and best-off members.

zagfles

cepheus wrote: »

Not true, NHS insurance is the ultimate insurance. You get it simply by being born here, you are insured against being unhealthy, a form of insurance against having to claim. In fact it's the only sort of insurance worth having.

It's as if prior to being born you were told, sign here! For insuring what? Everything! How much? As much as you can reasonably afford. Where is the small print? There isn't any. You won't find that on the High St!

Err..exactly. So it's not insurance. It's a benefit provided by the state regardless of what you pay in "premiums". Even tax dodgers aren't denied NHS treatment.

Commercial insurance, is really not anything of the kind, it's more pay a company a whopping fee to even out the costs, since they will claw any claims plus a massive profit through higher premiums. It requires more administrators to work through the law and exclusions etc rather than employ medical staff. That's why the American system costs so much.

See the Veil of Ignorance what would you choose the NHS or private healthcare which the average world citizen you probably wouldn't be able to afford?

So what? I much prefer healthcare being funded through tax rather than insurance, but let's not pretend the UK system is insurance. It's tax. The definition of which is "a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.". Pretty much sums up both income tax and NI.

talexuser

planteria wrote: »

that is what IDS is all over, and is making progress.

Another example of IDS "progress" has emerged today:

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2645-all-repeat-wca-medicals-to-be-stopped

The ESA medicals are in such a state of disarray, that all repeat assessments are to stop.

Not only that, but this fact should be hidden from claimants AND MPs because obviously too embarrassing an admission of failure, it only came out of a freedom of information request and has not hit any national news yet.

Glen_Clark

talexuser wrote: »

Another example of IDS "progress" has emerged today:

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2645-all-repeat-wca-medicals-to-be-stopped

The ESA medicals are in such a state of disarray, that all repeat assessments are to stop.

Not only that, but this fact should be hidden from claimants AND MPs because obviously too embarrassing an admission of failure, it only came out of a freedom of information request and has not hit any national news yet.

Interesting link, Thank You. After the death threats and assaults on ATOS staff I guess it was inevitable that assessments would have to be stopped until IDS can find another contractor to do his dirty work - who will now be in a strong bargaining position to demand even more taxpayer money than ATOS (£500 million) :eek:

link: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4902576


The Government seems determined to keep on inflating housing costs, irrespective of the danger and cost to the rest of the economy.

talexuser

Glen_Clark wrote: »

After the death threats and assaults on ATOS staff

Some of this "may" have happened. My suspicion remains it is just a PR exercise to excuse their failure to fulfil their contract and take some publicity glare away from their own shambles. Personally I never saw any of these stories until the withdrawal from contract, only stories that they were unable to actually hire enough qualified health professionals to actually DO all the assessments, since a job with them was seen among NHS staff to be the scrapings of the barrel.

zagfles

Glen_Clark wrote: »

The Government seems determined to keep on inflating housing costs, irrespective of the danger and cost to the rest of the economy.

The problem is the British have almost a collective mental illness when it comes to house prices. Rising prices are seen as good news in general, when for most people they are actually bad news. They are bad news not only for those who want to buy but also for owners who may want to move upmarket in the future, and for those with kids who will eventually move out.

Yet the majority don't see this, they believe all the thick property journalists who make out rising prices are good news for all. Like headlines in rags like the Express saying "£1000 rise a month in house prices", as if a £1000 rise in your house price means you've got £1000 extra to spend :rotfl:But because of this illusion, rising prices actually causes a feel good factor which makes people spend more, stupidly, rather than causing them to save more as their next move upmarket will be more expensive, or they'll need to lend their kids more if they ever want them to move out.

So good for the economy, generates growth, and another benefit for the govt is all the lovely extra taxes that result from higher prices - inheritance tax, stamp duty, care home fees paid for by people's equity rather than the state. Then they can lower tax rates and pretend we're taxed less. Plus of course anything popular means more votes.

So the govt has a huge vested interest in rising prices, and so all govts in recent history have had policies which encourage house price growth. Screw the young who can't afford to buy, they don't tend to vote anyway. Screw those living in shoeboxes who are too stupid to understand rising prices means they'll be stuck in their shoebox for longer.

Maybe people should start taking notice of journalists who actually understand finance rather the thick property journalists constantly on tedious TV property programmes. Eg http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3701070.stm

talexuser

Apologies for going off topic again but Atos latest:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10661359/Atos-awarded-contract-for-NHS-records.html

They have been awarded the contract for the NHS data sharing!

After the government mailshot that assured us the data was to be used for "cuddly" research purposes it turns out last year "hospital data has previously been sold to a society of actuaries which provided advice to insurance companies about how to “refine” their premiums."

Remember the proposals for your GP medical records were NOT that they were to be fully anonymised!

JohnRo

planteria wrote: »

that is what IDS is all over, and is making progress. the culture is very deeply ingrained, but must be tackled.

There's a delicious irony to that which I'm sure is completely lost on you.