paid for parking but still received the ticket

smc217

To spacey2012.
I have not kept the receipt. I am already feeling sorry for it. But as I have mentioned previously in this thread I am a foreigner and I am unfamiliar with UK regulations and "the way things work". Back where I come from nobody would let me out of the private car park without paying. You either pay, or your car stays there.

Anyway back to the appeal. I expect that this one will fail. Could you please clarify what did you mean by softappeal? Doesn't this one qualify for it?

Redx

smc217 wrote: »

.
I have not kept the receipt. I am already feeling sorry for it. But as I have mentioned previously in this thread I am a foreigner and I am unfamiliar with UK regulations and "the way things work". Back where I come from nobody would let me out of the private car park without paying. You either pay, or your car stays there.

Anyway back to the appeal. I expect that this one will fail. Could you please clarify what did you mean by soft appeal? Doesn't this one qualify for it?

alter your soft appeal to PE to include the following, or add your soft appeal into the following

Dear Parking Eye

In reference to the invoice xxxxxx, and your letters of (date). As the driver of the leased vehicle, I've decided to deal with this myself and raise the following points.

I wish to appeal this parking charge on the grounds that the driver was a genuine customer using the facilities and shops at XXXXXXX and had not realised that any contravention had taken place. They are checking for receipts to prove patronage but as you may appreciate they did not realise they would need to keep them or paid for parking tickets in case of parking issues in the future.

In regards to your actual parking charge I would like to make the following additional points

1) The charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) Your signage is inadequate and does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) You do not have authority or contract to issue these invoices

As you know popla upholds all appeals on the above, so you are invited to cancel this invoice now, or to issue a POPLA code so I can take my case to them

Sincerely

the driver

also insist on them checking the ticket machine for incorrect registration details in case of them being put in incorrectly.

you can quote their own performance on the tv programme watchdog as regards this item, seeing as they say its a requirement under the BPA CoP and that they do this in case of incorrect entries (unless it was excel ? , but it is still in the BPA CoP)

ps:- I believe they actually have 35 days to reply, not 14 , but will stand corrected if I am wrong

smc217

Well, at that point I don't want to chose any of three options in making my point:

1) The charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
2) Your signage is inadequate and does not comply with the BPA Code of Practice
3) You do not have authority or contract to issue these invoices

Reasons are simple.
1) It was not near the shop. It was a dedicated parking area (private)
2) I was aware that I had to pay
3) I paid

So at this point I will pursue PE into showing me evidence that they did not receive my payment. I wonder how they will respond. If they don't keep track of payments then they have no way of proving. If they keep just an excel sheet, then it does not prove anything because the excel sheet can be easily edited and forged.

By the way does anyone know of any regulations that state how long should the customer keep receipts for? I know a lot of ppl have already advised me to keep them for months, and I will in future, but this is common sense. What I am asking, is there a regulation?

Oh, and once again THANK YOU

Redx

you should ALWAYS query their right to do what they have done, so I would include them in an appeal , especially point 1) and point 3)

but you are the one appealing , not me

they are all a part of the Code of Practice that they should adhere to , so they have already broken it with their charge and have not provided proof that they have the legal contract in place to issue tickets or charge you

you also have the right to a popla code if they do not cancel the charge , so should ask for it

they cannot pursue after 6 YEARS in E+W, hence why I said 7 years, but a minimum term has to be at least 12 or 24 months , but 6 years still applies really

on a side note, nobody can prove they didnt receive a payment , they can prove what they did receive on the day, and the reg numbers that the customers entered, but that is all they CAN PROVE

what you are asking them to do is check their machines between say an hour before and an hour after the incident and see if they get a close or exact match, seeing as you insist that you paid

smc217

I guess I have to read a lot more on the subject. Luckily I still have time.

My biggest concern here is that by arguing over the total amount charged I will de facto admit that I have not paid for the service initially and am disagreeing with the amount they charged me. This is like testifying against myself. This is what I am afraid the most. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Redx

disagree, but remember this is not a court of law

they are saying you did not pay for a parking ticket , you dispute that and you say you did , that is one aspect of this , so you ask them to check for incorrect registration of the vehicle because we are presuming that you had to enter the reg number (did you do this ? ) and we are assuming you may have done this incorrectly ? like being dyslexic and putting the correct characters in the wrong order, or putting in one or more incorrect characters ?

then comes the parking charge notice, they are saying you broke their rules and have issued this pcn, so you then dispute it on the grounds that their calculations are not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and that they have no authority from the landowner to issue it in the first place

if you paid for a ticket there is no loss - correct ? if so then the loss is zero pounds - correct ?

if you did not pay, the loss is the parking fee, plus the cost of getting the reg details from the dvla, contacting the lease company, contacting you, and any admin fees - correct ?

now the OFT declared they believe this loss to be about £12 - so if you are liable for a charge its say £12 - correct ?

now does it say £0.00 or £12 on that PCN ? - I think not !

so you challenge them on the whole of the case they bring to you , not just a part of it that you (as newbie to this) assume to be valid

therefore because you asked for help, that is what you received here, so pointless then arguing about it - correct ?

if it goes to court, you are at liberty to discuss all this in court to a judge, who may decide your case on your points , until then it goes down well trodden paths that we have given you

in essence, they just want their extortionate parking charge (PCN) paid, all of it , or more , they arent really interested in mitigation or the original parking fee either, but they have rules to abide by (the BPA CoP)

have a read of this which is a similar case (but not identical) with a different PPC

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4814577

shows you what goes on, and why these things end up at POPLA

smc217

Redx, I was not arguing, I was trying to clarify things. Almost all cases that I have seen on this forum have discussed situation when people overstayed in a car park longer then they have paid for or did not pay at all. My situations is slightly different and I was trying to gather info.

The way you broke it down now helps a lot. It definitely makes it more clear. I am certainly not planning to ignore your (I don't mean just you but all forum participants in general) experience. After all this is what I came here for and arguing does not make sense. I am merely trying to be aware of all possible aspects of the situation. And you cannot blame a man for being too careful.

Thanks for nice and clear explanation for the n00b.

Oh, and back to the details. I did not enter the reg number in the machine. I remember that clearly. However the machine still gave me the receipt. Which does not quite make sense. I will try to make a point about equipment malfunction.

Redx

standard procedures would be to have to enter the reg number as this is how they verify it by comparing it with their ANPR cameras and pictures

clearly if you did not enter the reg number it explains why they issued the PCN

it is also why they have no records of you paying for a ticket

so that means their records will not have it registered, so they cannot prove what they dont have

this means you are asking them to check for an exact amount that you paid between those entry and exit times with no reg details on it , which explains to them why its not registered

do not tell them you cannot find it , just query it on that basis, but also the appeal should include what I or others have told you to include, doesnt matter if you understand it or not

in other words, if I sent you a bill for £100 for a bottle of milk you did not pay for in my shop, would you pay it ? or dispute not taking it, or insist that you actually paid for it, you may even query the invoice I sent you with the £100 saying I dont have the shop owners authority to send it out !! never mind that it does not reflect the loss to the shop

also, read the thread in the last link I gave you in post #17 , see how silly it gets

Umkomaas

It's a travesty that these machines still issue tickets without even any (erroneous) attempt to enter a VRM.

Any decent, 'ethical' company worth their salt would be trying to rectify this anomalous situation, where motorists are being unfairly pursued for mere misunderstandings, and where PPCs are generously enriched as a result.

But, hang on .........

Coupon-mad

''And they could not charge me anyway, I have used a debit card and it is sitting at zero balance at the moment.''


UK Bank accounts don't work like that - the hire firm might indeed debit an amount and send your account overdrawn and cost you fees on top. Check your account has not been debited and if it has, have a look at your hire terms & conditions and show us the wording about 'penalties and fines'. This is not a penalty nor a fine - it is just an invoice from a private firm and not many hire companies would be allowed under their t&cs to charge you for sending your details to a private firm. You may well have grounds to dispute the payment with your debt card provider, if such a charge has been sneaked through.