Family law advice, can anyone help? **update**

zzzLazyDaisy

This is a difficult situation and I don't know if there is an answer.

As the parent with care and (presumably) in receipt of child benefit for the children, the mother is entitled to any associated benefits. These benefits are to care for the children and keep a roof over their heads.

Normally, she would also receive child maintenance from the father, which would be reduced according to how many nights the children stay with him over the year (subject to a minimum number of nights).

He won't be paying maintenance, which leaves her shorter than she would normally be if they had a working father, and for his part, it also means there is no room for making a deduction in maintenance to help with the costs.

As far as I know, there is no obligation on the mother to contribute towards the travelling costs, or even the costs of him having the children staying with him (after all, looking at it from her point of view, he isn't contributing towards the costs of the children living with her - albeit through no fault of his own).

I certainly would not advise him to keep the children. From what you say the two eldest, if asked, would elect to stay with their mother, and the courts rarely split siblings unless there is a very good reason.

Also, legal aid is still available for cases where the child has been unlawfully removed from the PWC. As he does not have parental responsibility for the older children, he could find himself facing a court action where the mother is legally aided and he is unable to get funding or representation. It is not difficult to guess who would win in court in that situation.

I am really sorry to sound like the harbinger of doom, but I do think it is important to understand what he may be up against.

teabag29

Gigglepig wrote: »

OP it sounds like you have a lot of negative feelings about this woman and interpret her actions in the worst possible light. in order for your family to have the best possible relationship with the kids, it may pay out to respect and keep on good terms with this woman.

Can your brother and his ex go to mediation/relate etc for some unbiased help in discussing these issues, and finding good solutions for the kids?

.

Unfortunately it is proving hard to keep on good terms or any terms with her, she will not speak to me or any of the family which is fine but she will also only speak to my brother when convenient for her to get rid of the kids for a few days then she wont answer his calls for weeks on end and hes in bits. She keeps saying 'i'll see' or 'we'll have to sort something' whenever he asks about putting contact in place but she refuses to discuss it any further.

The only reason he has had contact so far is because she rang him to have the kids very suddenly the night before he had them, it was meant to be for a weekend but turned into 10 days for 2 of them and the elder one is still with him. In that time she only rang them a few times and when she did it was for less than a minute and told them she had to go (which really upset her daughter).

She also insisted that my brother buy nappies to send back with the youngest and has told him they are her kids and he'll see them when it suits her (although he isnt paying maintenance at present he has paid for everything the kids own and even paid for the move unbeknown to him as his wages all went in her bank every week and he had a small amount for cigarettes and leisure and gave her the rest, he paid for the kids presents every year at christmas and birthdays by doing extra shifts and sometimes borrowing and is continuing to buy things for the children directly as he does not trust her to have the money). She spends money like water on stupid things, she buys scratch cards everyday and takeaways most nights as she cant be bothered to cook.


I understand its important to try and be civil and all but its very hard when she cuts off communication for weeks on end and clearly is not putting the children first and what they want and need. It seems to me she is only using my brother for when she wants free time to party and socialise and doesnt want the children around and then doesnt let him speak to or see them for weeks until she wants to go out again.

The children are holding back but have told my brother that they are not happy there, that they have heard her bad mouthing my brother to her family and telling blatent lies which has upset the children (but then they get told off for listening) and have also heard the adults making threats about what they will do to my brother etc..... the children should not be exposed to this its awful. On top of this the eldest one has told us how the 1st day they arrived they were sent to her grandads house for him to babysit along with her 2 cousins and 1 of her cousins (whos only 6 and female) told her grandad he was lame so he jumped up and pulled her hair so that they were cheek to cheek and told her aggressively never to speak to her like that again. I know kids exagerate but my brothers daughter is a very quite shy girl and not generally the kind of child who makes things up or magnifies things, infact she has been crying alot about going home as shes scared that she will be in big trouble for choosing to speand longer with her dad.

Feels like we are in a bit of a catch 22 and not sure the best way forward, he knows once his daughter goes back the ex will cut contact again for goodness knows how long and its killing him, he loves the children so much but doesnt know what he can do.

FBaby

To be honest, I think you are way too involved in this matter. You know details about her and they relationship which means that either you have been too close to their relationship, or more likely, you are taking it all from what your brother is telling you. It is highly unlikely that the actual situation is exactly as he says, not because he is a liar, but because in these kind of situations, there are always two sides of the stories.

I can think of different reasons for her actions:
- she left because she too was subject to the bedroom tax and couldn't afford to pay it, maybe was told she was about to be evicted.
-maybe they had financial problems and debts and going back to her family was the only way to cope if she was told she couldn't be rehoused
-maybe your brother had a fit whilst he was looking after the children that scared them and that concerned the mother. Maybe he omitted to mention this
- Maybe she is depressed at what happened, stressed with having no choice but to move, and coping as well as she can with three children.

The bottom line is that you seem to be very quick to judge without maybe knowing all the facts. Leave your brother and her to it. Trying to manipulate the children to pick one or the other parent is terrible. Maybe your brother's health will stabilise even more and he will be able to get a job again and afford the weekly travel.

FatVonD

Would she let him claim that the youngest is living with him so he gets benefits for one child and also doesn't lose his home? He would presumably gain more than she loses in benefits for claiming for 2 children instead of 3 and he could use that to pay for the travel.

I know it would be fraudulent but effectively he's having 3 children for 2 nights out of 7 (so 6 out of a possible 21 child per nights) which is only a smidge less than one child for a whole week.

And yes, I agree you need to butt out

FatVonD

On a slightly more legal note, can he not just move to the same town as her if he's going to have to move anyway? Or let her and the kids move back into the house they shared and him move somewhere else in the same town?

teabag29

FBaby wrote: »

To be honest, I think you are way too involved in this matter. You know details about her and they relationship which means that either you have been too close to their relationship, or more likely, you are taking it all from what your brother is telling you. It is highly unlikely that the actual situation is exactly as he says, not because he is a liar, but because in these kind of situations, there are always two sides of the stories.

I can think of different reasons for her actions:
- she left because she too was subject to the bedroom tax and couldn't afford to pay it, maybe was told she was about to be evicted.
-maybe they had financial problems and debts and going back to her family was the only way to cope if she was told she couldn't be rehoused
-maybe your brother had a fit whilst he was looking after the children that scared them and that concerned the mother. Maybe he omitted to mention this
- Maybe she is depressed at what happened, stressed with having no choice but to move, and coping as well as she can with three children.

The bottom line is that you seem to be very quick to judge without maybe knowing all the facts. Leave your brother and her to it. Trying to manipulate the children to pick one or the other parent is terrible. Maybe your brother's health will stabilise even more and he will be able to get a job again and afford the weekly travel.

Ok let me clarify, I know so much because she and i were once very close, firstly as friends but once I saw how badly she was treating my brother it was more a case of keep your friends close enemies closer. Believe me this woman has no problem showing her nasty side, i didnt need to be told she would scream verabla dn threatening abuse at the children infront of me and told me things shes done and said to my brother. We all tried as a family to get him to leave her but he never would.
She was not affected by the bedroom tax (he is now as they are nolonger there). The reason she finally left is because her temper got to a point she could nolonger control it and she knew it so she went to her family for help. Basically she threw her son across the floor (she was on the phone to my brother screaming and swearing at the time) and the son told my brother and mum what she did and that the bruises he had all over his face (that werent there the day before) were caused by her. When my brother confronted her and threatened her with social services and police the son then went on to retract what he said and said he'd accidently bruised himself.

Regarding being rehoused and debts, the only debts incurred are the ones she ran up before fleeing and she hasnt been rehoused shes living at her cousins house where the children all share 1 room with no wall paper on the wall.

As for my brother fitting infront of her, not at all, when he first started his fits she stood in the doorway laughing at him and wouldnt help so i raced over and she told me he was faking it and laughed (believe me it was clear to see that it was no fake). when contact began i was concerned incase he had a fit whilst with the children but she didnt care, she basically told him he has them this weekend or never again so he had little choice plus he was desperate to see them. I popped in everyday to make sure everything was ok although his meds have nearly got his fitting under control anyway.

I understand there are 2 sides to every story but this woman really is an abusive, lazy selfish person. Seems my brother doesnt have much in the way of rights and on top of everything is dealing with our mum having cancer and his own illness aswell as having to be rehoused, that he can all deal with but not seeing his children he cant its so unfair.

I have been seriously tempted to call social services (even before this happened) not through spite but because im seriously concerned about her ability to parent and put the kids first, i also think before she left the school were having concerns too which is prob another reason she went. The thing is i know the children wont tell them the truth because they'll be too scared they'll get sent away or that she'll get angry with them and so with no proof theres little that social services can do, then she will cut contact permanently with my brother and then we'll never see the children or know that they are safe. I just hope that now she has more family nearby she will calm her temper down.

Also when you say 'Trying to manipulate the children to pick one or the other parent is terrible'. Nobody has done this, his daughter has told him that she wants to be there with him but will miss her mum, he has told her the door is always open for her but she must do whatever makes her happy and he fully understands the need to be with her mother, he would never try and manipulate the children but what is he supposed to say when his little girl after not seeing him for a month comes to him crying her heart out saying 'daddy I hate it up there its not my home and I want to be here with you'. Its an awful situation

teabag29

FatVonD wrote: »

On a slightly more legal note, can he not just move to the same town as her if he's going to have to move anyway? Or let her and the kids move back into the house they shared and him move somewhere else in the same town?

He wont move up there because of his health he needs help from family (there is more to his health than just the fits but too long to go into) plus his job is being held open atleast until end of year incase he is able to go back at some point but more than that her family are making threats to him so he would not be safe up there on his own..... basically they dont want the kids seeing him (i think she has a new man in her life who is a family friend and the fact that the kids are missing thei dad is proving difficult for her so they want him out the way for good so the kids forget about him). Due to my brothers health i am prob more involved than i should be yes but he would not be able to cope alone with it all at present, he hasnt a clue what to do or where to start and as im (without meaning to sound cruel) slightly higher up the intelligence ladder im trying to find out his rights etc to help him, I have had no contact with her at all since before she left.

He did move out when they split to let her have the house but shes not interested in that option she said she likes it better over there despite the kids hating it.

RAS

teabag

You need to disengage if you are going to be any help to your brother at all.

At the moment you are letting all that stuff get in the way.

And your brother needs to wise up fast.

He should NOT be challenging his ex about the bruises on the child's face. Assuming that the child was with your brother the next day, he should have taken photographs and then taken him to the doctor's or A&E and there is a good chance that the child would have told a health professional what mum had done so that they raised safeguarding concerns.

As we have all already told you, your brother needs to go to court to get Parental Responsibility for the older children. He does not need a lawyer to do that; he can get advice from the two people we have already mentioned.

There is no point going round "woe is me" or railing about all the things this woman has done in the past. Brother needs to take the first steps to get PR urgently.

Can he take a lodger or two to protect the house in the short term?

And start to collect evidence. There are a number of apps that allow calls to be recorded, is his phone suitable?

He needs evidence not allegations.

FBaby

Surely if they are risk about their welfare under their mother's care, the fact that she's gone to live with family because she recognised she wasn't coping alone is a good thing.

It is also normal that the children should not like it there. It is hard at that age to cope with changes. When I moved with my two children, they first find it very hard, even though they were seeing their father just the same. They had to adjust to a new home, a new school, new friends. My boy cried on a number of occasions which was really hard to see as a parent, but 6 months later, they adjusted well and made the new town their home. They are now very happy and wouldn't go back even if offered.

Your brother and his ex are separated. Many nrp would love to see their kids every week-ends and half holidays. He doesn't pay any maintenance, so looking after them 2 days isn't so bad. The issue is the transport, but surely if it means the children are most likely to be safe, it is better this way. Maybe you, other family and friends could help with these costs until he is well enough to go back to work?

teabag29

RAS wrote: »

teabag

You need to disengage if you are going to be any help to your brother at all.

At the moment you are letting all that stuff get in the way.

And your brother needs to wise up fast.

He should NOT be challenging his ex about the bruises on the child's face. Assuming that the child was with your brother the next day, he should have taken photographs and then taken him to the doctor's or A&E and there is a good chance that the child would have told a health professional what mum had done so that they raised safeguarding concerns.

As we have all already told you, your brother needs to go to court to get Parental Responsibility for the older children. He does not need a lawyer to do that; he can get advice from the two people we have already mentioned.

There is no point going round "woe is me" or railing about all the things this woman has done in the past. Brother needs to take the first steps to get PR urgently.

Can he take a lodger or two to protect the house in the short term?

And start to collect evidence. There are a number of apps that allow calls to be recorded, is his phone suitable?

He needs evidence not allegations.

Ok I hear you but he did not challenge his son, it was his son who told him this. I know you are saying im too involved but I havent actually done anything other than try and find out his rights, due to his health problems at the minute he does need some help and so im arranging his appts for him and helping to find out where he stands etc to ease some pressure off of him.

I have also told him he needs to show evidence and keep things logged in a diary but things are very complicated as part of his health condition has started to affect his memory so he needs to log things as and when they happen.

Its hard to get evidence though when she cuts contact and wont speak to him for weeks on end or answer calls etc. I do believe the school were having concerns because of a few things the children had said and marks on them, time off school etc but the only time im aware of where they questioned her she told them that the boy had fallen and this was accepted. They did take her to court for taking them out of school for a holiday in school time and she was fined for that.

So I guess the next step is for him to apply for a PR order and go to the CAB