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Capital Depreciation/Care Costs/Pension Credit
Modfather_2
Posts: 4 Newbie
Regarding these issues...
Capital Depreciation/Care Costs/Pension Credit
Is this the correct forum, to ask advice, Thanks.
My dad got took into a nursing home three years ago after a fall, head injury, full nursing needs; he is fully funded by the NHS. He is not means tested, and he is not funded by the local authority. In the next few weeks, he will be accessed again, we could lose funding, and we might not. He owns a house outright, worth about 140 thousand pounds, it is sitting empty, and we just pay the bills out of his pension. He gets state pension and pension credit, about 120 quid a week. Until recently my brother lived in the house, but he died recently, and his pension company paid out life insurance to my dad. My dad is confused, he does not know what day of the week it is, brain damage head injury. So my other brother has power of attorney for his affairs, my dad cannot make any decisions, bed bound, incontinent, confused. The life insurance has been paid into my dad’s bank account, 35 thousand pounds, it is in my dads name, he was on the policy to recieve any pay out, its my dads money now. We are worried it might affect his pension credits or if we lose funding, any financial assessment will take the money and his house. The house we cannot do much about, if we lose funding, we lose the house. But my brother is going to take all the money out of my dad’s bank account and gift it to nine of us, kids and grand kids. Just to get rid of it, so the authorities do not get their hands on it if we lose funding. Is this legal, can my brother take 35 thousand pounds out of my dad’s bank account and spilt it nine ways, then give it away to family, he has full power of attorney. Can someone with full power of attorney, take 35 grand out of the persons bank account and do what he wants with it? Thanks
Capital Depreciation/Care Costs/Pension Credit
Is this the correct forum, to ask advice, Thanks.
My dad got took into a nursing home three years ago after a fall, head injury, full nursing needs; he is fully funded by the NHS. He is not means tested, and he is not funded by the local authority. In the next few weeks, he will be accessed again, we could lose funding, and we might not. He owns a house outright, worth about 140 thousand pounds, it is sitting empty, and we just pay the bills out of his pension. He gets state pension and pension credit, about 120 quid a week. Until recently my brother lived in the house, but he died recently, and his pension company paid out life insurance to my dad. My dad is confused, he does not know what day of the week it is, brain damage head injury. So my other brother has power of attorney for his affairs, my dad cannot make any decisions, bed bound, incontinent, confused. The life insurance has been paid into my dad’s bank account, 35 thousand pounds, it is in my dads name, he was on the policy to recieve any pay out, its my dads money now. We are worried it might affect his pension credits or if we lose funding, any financial assessment will take the money and his house. The house we cannot do much about, if we lose funding, we lose the house. But my brother is going to take all the money out of my dad’s bank account and gift it to nine of us, kids and grand kids. Just to get rid of it, so the authorities do not get their hands on it if we lose funding. Is this legal, can my brother take 35 thousand pounds out of my dad’s bank account and spilt it nine ways, then give it away to family, he has full power of attorney. Can someone with full power of attorney, take 35 grand out of the persons bank account and do what he wants with it? Thanks
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Comments
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The authorities do not get their hands on peoples money, the money goes to the care provider. Even if your brother gives away this money your father would still have to pay the care home fees (if this is what is decided) because of the house. It is not your brother's money to give away and this could be viewed as theft. Getting rid of money in order to get care home fees paid is deprivation of assets which is basically fraud.
Once your father's capital goes below a certain level (about £22,000) he would then be entitled to Local Authority funding.0 -
.... Is this legal, can my brother take 35 thousand pounds out of my dad’s bank account and spilt it nine ways, then give it away to family, he has full power of attorney. Can someone with full power of attorney, take 35 grand out of the persons bank account and do what he wants with it? ...
Well they 'can'. But it's not legal. Criminal charges would be a possibility.
https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy0 -
This is my question, the money goes into my dads bank account next week, we will not touch it if the law says we cannot touch it. But what you are saying is my brother cannot gift it all to family members, just so as a family we do not lose the money should he lose his funding?
Also how will they no, how will they found out, only me and my brother no about the money, no one else....I cannot see how they would find out....I am not saying we will go ahead, just wondering..
BTW Thanks0 -
Well they 'can'. But it's not legal. Criminal charges would be a possibility.
You link is report a concern, nothing about gifting the money not being legal...
Surely, the money is of no use to my dad, why cannot the family benefit, we have just lost our older brother, my two nephews need university fee's funding, if my dad had capacity, he would give it to them, but my brother has power of attorney because my dad has no capacity, so my brother has the right to make the decision on my dads behalf....Surely..0 -
If he applies for funding they will ask for bank statements. Government departments can access all bank and building society accounts. Obtaining public funding by giving away money is deprivation of assets, this is FRAUD which is a CRIMINAL offence. Your Dad won't get funding anyway because of the house. Also your brother would be stealing the money which is also a CRIME.0
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You link is report a concern, nothing about gifting the money not being legal...
Surely, the money is of no use to my dad, why cannot the family benefit, we have just lost our older brother, my two nephews need university fee's funding, if my dad had capacity, he would give it to them, but my brother has power of attorney because my dad has no capacity, so my brother has the right to make the decision on my dads behalf....Surely..
At best your Dad would be treated as still having the money at worse he could be prosecuted for theft. There are strict rules regarding POA which your brother should read up on. Your brother doesn't have the right to steal money in order to benefit his own family.0 -
Your brother should have registered the EPA/LPA with the Office of the Public Guardian/Court of Protection once your father became incapacitated - otherwise the Power of Attorney is of no effect.
Once registered, a transaction such as you propose could only be done with the authority of the court. Recent caselaw suggests that the court would not approve the gift(s). They take the attitude their role is not to preserve an inheritence.0 -
Regarding these issues...
Capital Depreciation/Care Costs/Pension Credit
Is this the correct forum, to ask advice, Thanks.
My dad got took into a nursing home three years ago after a fall, head injury, full nursing needs; he is fully funded by the NHS. He is not means tested, and he is not funded by the local authority. In the next few weeks, he will be accessed again, we could lose funding, and we might not. He owns a house outright, worth about 140 thousand pounds, it is sitting empty, and we just pay the bills out of his pension. He gets state pension and pension credit, about 120 quid a week. Until recently my brother lived in the house, but he died recently, and his pension company paid out life insurance to my dad. My dad is confused, he does not know what day of the week it is, brain damage head injury. So my other brother has power of attorney for his affairs, my dad cannot make any decisions, bed bound, incontinent, confused. The life insurance has been paid into my dad’s bank account, 35 thousand pounds, it is in my dads name, he was on the policy to recieve any pay out, its my dads money now. We are worried it might affect his pension credits or if we lose funding, any financial assessment will take the money and his house. The house we cannot do much about, if we lose funding, we lose the house. But my brother is going to take all the money out of my dad’s bank account and gift it to nine of us, kids and grand kids. Just to get rid of it, so the authorities do not get their hands on it if we lose funding. Is this legal, can my brother take 35 thousand pounds out of my dad’s bank account and spilt it nine ways, then give it away to family, he has full power of attorney. Can someone with full power of attorney, take 35 grand out of the persons bank account and do what he wants with it? Thanks
First of all your brother must notify Pension Credit that your dad has received this money as this is a change of circumstances ad will affect the amount of money that he receives.
If you do not do this then you will have a hefty repayment to make later.
Next, it does not necessarily follow that after your dad's assessment he will lose his Continuing Health Care so you may be worrying unnecessarily.
If Dad's house is empty you may want to consider getting some income from it by renting it out.
Another thing you might want to consider is getting a Prepaid Funeral Plan. The amount would be locked into today's prices and it makes sense to purchase one now. This is not considered deprivation of capital.
It is perfectly OK for your dad to make reasonable gifts to his family - usually at Christmas/birthdays. Have a read up what having Power of Attorney involves.
Edit.
Your difficulty is that your dad is already in a care home so any spending of capital will immediately be assessed for deprivation of capital.
Personally I would wait until the assessment is done and then look at things again.
It is a really difficult one because, as you said, your dad would want to help. However, at the moment he may need the money for his care so this has to take precedent - his needs rather than his family's.0 -
pmlindyloo wrote: »First of all your brother must notify Pension Credit that your dad has received this money as this is a change of circumstances ad will affect the amount of money that he receives.
If you do not do this then you will have a hefty repayment to make later.
Next, it does not necessarily follow that after your dad's assessment he will lose his Continuing Health Care so you may be worrying unnecessarily.
If Dad's house is empty you may want to consider getting some income from it by renting it out.
Another thing you might want to consider is getting a Prepaid Funeral Plan. The amount would be locked into today's prices and it makes sense to purchase one now. This is not considered deprivation of capital.
It is perfectly OK for your dad to make reasonable gifts to his family - usually at Christmas/birthdays. Have a read up what having Power of Attorney involves.
Edit.
Your difficulty is that your dad is already in a care home so any spending of capital will immediately be assessed for deprivation of capital.
Personally I would wait until the assessment is done and then look at things again.
It is a really difficult one because, as you said, your dad would want to help. However, at the moment he may need the money for his care so this has to take precedent - his needs rather than his family's.
Such a large sum would not be considered a reasonable gift and the attorney - assuming the power has been registered and remains valid - would need to ask the court.
The court in considering what is reasonable, looks at what remains - so a multi-millionaire may well be able to gift £35k as their remaining assets means that they can provide for themselves, but I would think not someone in this person's position.
The OPG has published a detailed guidance note on just this subject which is here: http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/protecting-the-vulnerable/mca/pg-note-02-12-gifts.pdf0 -
Such a large sum would not be considered a reasonable gift and the attorney - assuming the power has been registered and remains valid - would need to ask the court.
The court in considering what is reasonable, looks at what remains - so a multi-millionaire may well be able to gift £35k as their remaining assets means that they can provide for themselves, but I would think not someone in this person's position.
The OPG has published a detailed guidance note on just this subject which is here: http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/protecting-the-vulnerable/mca/pg-note-02-12-gifts.pdf
Thank you for this.
My apologies if anyone thought that my mentioning reasonable gifts suggested that the OP's brother could give all the money away. That, as you rightly pointed out would not be reasonable
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