my god, this lot are stopping childcare vouchers now

andy.m_2

I freely admit that we used to use childcare vouchers.

Mrs M could stay at home but chose not to, she works part time and in return pays approximately £850 pcm in tax and stamp.

In return for that decision the government allows us something like £90 pcm as a break against that.

The economy would be £760pcm worse off for Mrs M staying at home. There would also be cutting back in the M household and so our expenditure each month would be reduced, less VAT in the economy, multiply this out by say 1 million recipients and that's some deficit.

Those bleating about paying for my kids upbringing, that's fine, but we pay directly for private healthcare for the entire family so maybe you can offset my voucher benefit against your NHS benefit.

gailey_2

Ok guys I know quite a bit about this and when you drill down into detail which is sadly lacking its quite shocking!

I had my 1st child in 2006 went back to work in 2007 when she was 11 months old full time, husband also worked full time.
we have no family freinds locally that could help we did alternate shifts
but nursery fees were £850 a month! I only earned just over £1000 I had to pay petrol to get to work.

we were never eligible to the childcare element of tax credits as our combined earnings were too high hubby had audacity to earn a decent wage you see.

The max per parent can claim is £243 a month through work taken before tax its salary sacrafice so does effect ni contributions and can affect pensions later if ie woman ha not paid enough ni to get state pension.

If both parents have 1 child and both work for example they save £1800 a year and the new scheme offers £1200 per child so they immedatly 600quid worse off.

To make matters worse couple years ago they already changed thse vouchers they reduced the amount a higher rate tax payer could save so amount they saved by scheme was reduced anyway think basic rate tax payers stayed the same.

Its true not all employers offer the vouchers but out of 6companies me and husband worked for they all did.
Self employed were not eligible.
There was no limit on how many hours worked or how much you earn as log as one of you worked and company did you contacted hr payroll who usually worked with specific voucher provider.

We use them currently only husband works.
saves us £40 a month not huge amount but it helps.

I think new scheme single parents are ok
no mention of what if one parents studying?

But heres the sting the new scheme is not means tested.

theres lots conditions so if you have more than 1 child and you both work you gain more.

if you have 1 child you screwed you get less than you were on old scheme

if 2parents and im not joking earn 150k a year then the liits 399k then they get to claim £1200 per child -why the heck why.

if 2parents earn 49k each and have 3kids.

they get to keep all their child benefit and now get 1200 each towards childcare costs how the heck is that blooming fair as well as getting cut in income tax in april they laughing.

Im sorry if 50k is deemed too rich to get child benefit then why hell should 2parents on close to 100k still get and now if sahm on 1salary its a double cut!

ohh new scheme min amount someone has to earn in palce 10grand so on min wage job 29hours a week its not like jobs are land of plenty out there and many wont offer set shifts expect full flexibility.

Also current vouchers allow to be used any ofsted registered place

school after school clubs, breckfast clubs , holiday clubs.
As if no ones noticed kids get a lot of holiday and inset days 14weeks holiday a year +inset days.

The new scheme initaily just for 5year olds.

much harder with school age kids as nursery could drop them off 8-6 they be fed. school 9-3.

Even then not all schools offer childcare facilities very patchy depending where you love which is why some chose to stay at home and yes its a financial sacrafice being on one income but we get by just.

But as most average people never mind 2earners cant earn that sort of money maybe if I had become an mp!

So heck lot people not even be eligible so its a cut/saving to them dresses up as gift.

my nursery place for dd1 was 10k a year I only earnt 20k before tax and ni.

in london its more like 14-15k per child.

childcare costs vary depending where you live in uk.

Theres a free 15hours grant for nursery education ter after 3rd birthday.
middle dd just got it jan shes sept 16th so cant start school until next year so i funding extra time in childcare compared to eldest.
I started her september as they wouldent hold her place and she was 3 in sept she was more than ready to start.

shes done 1day day nursery since 18months as we sadw what educational/development benefit nursery can be we have no family here, no freinds with kids more about socialisation and some independence from parent.

Its helped she got grant funding 15hours but its 38weeks a year and nursery day is loger than 2sesssions and runs 51weeks a year so theres a shortfall. its £40 a day per child.

we were hoping to stat child no 3 this year.

Government keep saying how important nursery education is and how it improves educational outcomes at school.

They introduced limited 2year old grant for deprived low income children whos parents dont neccessarily work but struggle with parenting!

Im 33this year worked from 15 at some points 2jobs!
I was 1st year at uni with tuition fees and student loan.

my husbands 40 hes never been unemployed since leaving school at 18 always worked fulltime.

we dident buy a house so at mercy of private landord.

we dont get housing benefits or council tax relief.
neither of us have ever claimed jsa
we lost £10 a week tax credits last april could just about live with that.
Neither of us worked in public sector so not been able to stake advantage of stupid amount paid sick leave, longer maternity, generous pensions and lots of holiday like freinds have.

No help with our energy bills, see rich oaps on bus some even have cars yet im walking miles with toddlers in tow in all weathers as bus fare so expensive here.

Even school buses doesnt matter if faith school are 60+ a month.

so yes having kids is expensive.

everythings going up hubbys wages are not.

we have 3kids we support ourselves right now not worth me working I do voluntary stuff pta, preschiool committee, breastfeeding group ect.

we have cost the state very little so yes feel enalised and victimised we only just got to keep child benefit as below the threshold.

we dident benefit from right to buy
we have no chance getting social housing
Im doubtful we get the oap benefits current oaps get.
we havent been abroad in 8years.
looked into retraining but as 2nd degree depite paying for 1st i cant afford the 9grand a year tuition fees +childcare to allow me to do so.

I know freind married husband low income and state related top up benefits means they take home same amount as hubby does after tax.

Most people are clever now they know no sense in being jsa just get low paid job and not bother working hard then state will top you up.
its hardly apsirational.

I fully support people going back to work if thats a valid finacial choice for me 3with 3needing childcare would have to be very well paid to be worth while.

I voted tory feel betrayed hate labour as they created this nation of dependancy.


They keep bashing the middle thinking we wont kick off.
if you low earner or very high earner you fine.

gailey_2

andy.m wrote: »

I freely admit that we used to use childcare vouchers.

Mrs M could stay at home but chose not to, she works part time and in return pays approximately £850 pcm in tax and stamp.

In return for that decision the government allows us something like £90 pcm as a break against that.

The economy would be £760pcm worse off for Mrs M staying at home. There would also be cutting back in the M household and so our expenditure each month would be reduced, less VAT in the economy, multiply this out by say 1 million recipients and that's some deficit.

Those bleating about paying for my kids upbringing, that's fine, but we pay directly for private healthcare for the entire family so maybe you can offset my voucher benefit against your NHS benefit.

Husbands last job had private healthcare the labour decided to tax us 800quid a month on it but we never use it and if we did we would have saved the nhs money.

Ohh not to mention we not far from wales.

but pay dentist
pay prescriptions!

gailey_2

also just wanted to say childcare pays badly some min wage staff at daughters nursery.

why is it a chauffer to works deductble yet a nanny/nursery is not.

my solution

up rate income tax to say 15k before paying tax
allow childcare to be tax deductable

then only someone in work could theoretically get help with childcare.

the 2year old grant is targeted at problem families and parents who need extra help.

Noticed some people think everyone with kids are milking the state they not.

The low income ones always get more than they put in!Think hubands monthly income tax similar to nursery cost fulltime.

Im forever trying to balance the budget with food we cant even afford school dinners which low income get for free as its £40 a month!

petrols going up so we try use car for essential journeys and commute to work.

CLAPTON

gailey wrote: »

Husbands last job had private healthcare the labour decided to tax us 800quid a month on it but we never use it and if we did we would have saved the nhs money.

Ohh not to mention we not far from wales.

but pay dentist
pay prescriptions!

rubbish
private health care has always been a benefit in kind

and 800 per month tax seems a litttle unlikely

grizzly1911

gailey wrote: »

also just wanted to say childcare pays badly some min wage staff at daughters nursery.

why is it a chauffer to works deductble yet a nanny/nursery is not.

my solution

up rate income tax to say 15k before paying tax
allow childcare to be tax deductable

then only someone in work could theoretically get help with childcare.

the 2year old grant is targeted at problem families and parents who need extra help.

Noticed some people think everyone with kids are milking the state they not.

The low income ones always get more than they put in!Think hubands monthly income tax similar to nursery cost fulltime.

Im forever trying to balance the budget with food we cant even afford school dinners which low income get for free as its £40 a month!

petrols going up so we try use car for essential journeys and commute to work.

Thanks for the informative posts and you make some very good points regarding the injustices in the system. As you point out quite why a family with the potential to earn £300k need help with childcare, when the cut off for may other benefits seem to be around the higher tax band cut off seems totally bizarre.

You are obviously working hard to keep the balls up in the air.

Why did you decide to have three children, if income was going to be a con straining factor? Haven't you contributed to your own dilemma?

exarmydreamer

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Thanks for the informative posts and you make some very good points regarding the injustices in the system. As you point out quite why a family with the potential to earn £300k need help with childcare, when the cut off for may other benefits seem to be around the higher tax band cut off seems totally bizarre.

This just about sums it up. The childcare help for families earning upto 300K, (between parents) is the government 's way of giving the Child Benefit back to the highest earners. It is the higher earners compensation for the loss of Child Benefit for those earning over 50K .

Just means that the 'ladies who like to shop or lunch', or 'the yummy mummies', will now have to find a job to enable them to leave the children in nursery.

gailey_2

I made mistake was thinking total deductions was just under £800 ni and tax combined tax was nearly 500 on 41k a year gross salary sounds a lot but once every things paid its not.

We always wanted 3.

I did the full time thing after one

The biggest loss of having kids is income and the biggest expenditure is childcare.

I know so many who use family as free childcare.
we live where we live to be close to mil as shes needs support but mainly thats where jobs are my hoe worn in wales there are no job most of town that doesnt own houses seems to be on benefits.

My mum seems to get quite worked up about it all those teenage mums but all the jobs in town are part time in wage, houseprices are disproportinate with wages there.My mums house was brought as part of divorce settlement. shes always had part time casual work cleaning, ironing, she did have 2part time jobs but got made redunant.

So when chosing to entend hour family me being already at home.
got to reuse stuff it used to be low income hot 500quid aternity grant thanfully they capped that at 1 child only and we buy most of their clothes 2nd hand, eldest takes packed lunches.

They not deprived kids by any means not looking for sympathy.

They well dressed most 2nd hand, they warm, well fed. They have 1cheap uk holiday a year and couple day trips. eldest does some sports clubs, they have a birthday party, middle child has done some preschool nursery education and ballet which she loves.

Some say ohh why you wasting money on clubs but its social and daughter likes gym and as they get bolder think its better for them doing structured sports than hanging round streets bored and doing nothing.Im fortunate her school do couple of cheap clubs too.
People underestimate benefits of extra currucular activity.

we live in privatly rented newish build 3bed so room sizes small. girls share master bedroom and baby boy has the box.
I breastfed all 3 so savings there dident get cheap or free formula.
We get trough lots milk here and that,s huge expense.

When I worked in food retail used to see how much healthy start vouchers people got and took for granted.

Used to see them on monday queue up outside post office.
They come over to my shop and load trolleys mostly crap before getting their ciggies and booze.

Then some would go off down local boozer for day sat in beer garden with buggy. Some judged me for working full time as its bad for kids innit to be away fro their mam!

They moaned about their benefits whilst I paid the the £800 a month nursery fees after everything deducted I was earning pocket money not huge contribution to our household.

They dot see daddy some days as hes retail he works long days, shifts, bank holidays weekends feels like being single parent at times.

I also think its important to note things change.

people have kids get made redundant or pay cut.
its not black and white.

intrugued if it affects home educators as they save state money yet get no financial contribution.

From what I can see of system if you

low income and childless you worse off and can be a struggle.
if you middle income and childless then you doing ok
if you high income you laughing.

if you low income with kids -you massivly better off
if you middle income with kids you getting screwed.
if you top income well yes kids do cost a blot but cheer up you getting drop in income tax, 1200quid childcare and will never worry about how much monthly grocery bill is or how to fund school uniform.

If you low income pensioner without house you can get lots.
if you middle income pensioner with house-then you ok
if you high income pensioner ie state and 1-2private pensions, winter fuel, free bus then you blooming lucky.

You cant solve child poverty by throwing money at it dont think labour understood that but I know any middle income kids with far less stuff and holidays than lower income kids.

I at least have taught mine value of money and glad they still quite young as if had teenager now not sure what to advise as uni so expensive no guarantee of job but if leave straight form school no jobs either. For the girls when they can have a baby tough luck for the boys.

As a parent schools worry me as massive disparity in uk on state education here we have shortage so kids might not get a place or end up in !!!!! school and therefore be doomed in later life.
But private schools beyond our middle income reach with 3kids.

when i was young there was assisted places labour scrapped that.
They scrapped married couples allowance in 1997 so shocked to hear some people still think they get that!

John_Pierpoint

StevieJ wrote: »

Is that not a circular argument or paradox?

Carl31 wrote: »

but this investment is made through Child benefit

Childcare vouchers subsidises people that want a career and want to have kids, where, imo, you choose one or the other, or you pay for the lifestyle you choose

I've never really understood why some people have children, then leave them with someone else to raise 70% of the time

lippy1923 wrote: »

Can you please explain what you mean by "you are no use to the country....."
I was asking a general question (to another poster who already answered my question).

I don't have any kids myself. A state pension is about the only thing I can think of that I would benefit from. That is if I live until my late 70's/ maybe even early 80's by the time I'm eligible. I don't think it's particularly relevant to compare benefits to pay for health care vs to pay for kids. People choose to have kids. They don't choose to get sick.

I am a bit too old to have taken an intimate interest in this argument; but are the vouchers not being replaced by a fund, a bit like a private pension fund?
What you put in is tax free and what comes out has to be spent on child care?

The country is bankrupt and trying to get half of the peoples' money off them, to spend on their behalf.
So these wretched people who only think of their half of what they are earning are being really selfish.
Both my children are in marriages that could earn more money tomorrow, if all 4 of them got their noses to the grind stone 40 hours a week.
Come to that so could I, though I no longer have the earning potential of my children.

So you wealthy and talented people, you county needs you to get stuck in for at least 40 hours a week.

Hopefully, like the aristocracy of old, you won't want to bring up you own smelly snotty kids, you will find a wet nurse to do that job for you.

The country will be overrun with with unemployable lower orders, once the benefits get cut, so do you bit and create a baby minding job for these people.
To help you get the idea of what is needed to get the UK economy moving again, the government is offering you a tax cut; after all the baby care assistant will be off benefits, spending "her own" wages paid by you and contributing her share of tax - what a big improvement.

Come on you selfish and idle people your country needs you. Find someone else to care for the sprog and go out to built you career batting for Britain.
Then repay the massive educational investment the rest of us made in you.

Was it Brave new World, where stay at home mother was a phrase that induced feeling of nausea ?

Carl31

gailey wrote: »

Ok guys I know quite a bit about this but nursery fees were £850 a month! I only earned just over £1000 I had to pay petrol to get to work.

£1000 net or gross?

im sure there is a good reason, but why did you go back to work for what is essentially £150 a month less petrol? if not less if the pay mentioned was gross?

would it not have made more sense to not pay the childcare?