Do Greek voters think they can just go on spending more than they earn forever?

vax2002

All the greeks have to worry about is that we keep electing pro European parties.
Why else should they worry about working and paying tax if we are stupid enough to vote pro Europe and work and pay it for them.

grizzly1911

ILW wrote: »

Trouble is that Greece are still spending more than they take in tax (even excluding interest payments) and they all go loopy when told they need to cut back on spending, or start paying any tax. If they went full default then nobody would lend them any money for years and the forced austerity would be even tougher.

And?

They will default almost fully, it has been on the cards for eons whether in or out of the euro.

They would adjust or just drift to the west in droves or possibly to the NE as Russia doesn't seem to feature in any financial bad news.

Time to get out the Trident PO?

On another tangent - I can understand bank and associated shares falling in the UK but why do other blue chips suddenly follow suit. National Grid for instance, we aren't suddenly going to do away with our power distribution here or in America. Pharmaceuticlas/drug companies - whose products are always going to command apremium of some description wherever the market falls?

grizzly1911

DirtyDick wrote: »

If the Greek people decide "they" don't owe anything, they don't. Doesn't mean anyone has to lend them anything or any companies sell things to the Greek State.

So they can live as farmers and beach bums.

Where do you apply?

sabretoothtigger

Its human nature to push a good deal as far as possible. Things will boil over and reset then people realise they had it easy and it starts over

oldvicar

DirtyDick wrote: »

If the Greek people decide "they" don't owe anything, they don't. Doesn't mean anyone has to lend them anything or any companies sell things to the Greek State.

So they can live as farmers and beach bums.

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Where do you apply?

No application required. If you are British and can afford a passport then you are entitled to join in. One of the many benefits of being a European is the free movement of labour (and beach bums).

pinkteapot

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-punch-gift-horse-in-the-face-201111014490/

julieq

OK, quick explanation of why this is bad and why it matters.

Greece is not Argentina. Argentina had a floating currency but more importantly is in the middle of a boom area full of natural resources which are needed by China and other countries, so it has something of value to offer the world. When Greece goes bankrupt (I think it is "when", not "if"), it will be unable to pay the salaries of public sector employees and probably pensions in the public sector. Its economy will contract sharply, it will be unable to borrow money from anyone, it will be unable to support its own industry to export, and it will be removed from the Euro. Very very bad if you are Greek. The Greek government is presumably gambling on this becoming clear to their electorate, but I doubt they will. They're too deeply embedded into an entitlement culture, and they believe there has been a bank conspiracy against their people.

So if you are Greek, you are busily opening euro denominated accounts in German banks and pushing your money there. That is shifting liabilities elsewhere which has knock on effects later. Greek banks will not be holding much of the can when this all goes belly up.

A few banks take a hit in Europe on Greek defaults, which is damaging but not fatal. That means they have to increase capital from other means. But now they have seen a country bankrupted on public debt and discovered that euro debts can be shifted around very easily, and so they have to start worrying about any debt they hold from other Eurozone countries. The big worry then becomes Italy, which is a major economy bearing close comparison with Greece. As the banks attempt to recapitalise against this risk, they have to stop lending internally, which reduces the funds available to even healthy country's industry to provide growth. And thus the whole house of cards goes over.

Now the only people rejoicing at this are halfwitted financial numpties who want to believe this will somehow advantage them on house prices or allow the UK to sail free of the EU into the clear waters of, err, being completely isolated from everyone else (good plan, eh?). In fact what it will do is most likely put them out of work or massively reduce their standard of living, because it will be virtually impossible for businesses to invest in any sort of growth, and any viable businesses will be bought up wholesale from China where they'll look a cheap and effective hedge against local risks from the property bubble. China is not interested in your job or your pension.

Short of invading Greece though there's not much we can do to combat their unbelievable stupidity. In fact it's not unreasonable that having given them every chance to rescue themselves by reining in their spending and guaranteeing their debt, the Eurozone should hang them out to dry just to show what happens if you decide to spend well beyond your means and expect Germany and France to pick up the tab. But no-one has the remotest idea how this will play out from here, and hence the market uncertainty. Berlusconi is hardly a reliable leader.

I'm not a natural pessimist, but this looks to me like a combination of worse cases one after another.

Conrad

kbrumann wrote: »

You hit the neal on its head. This crisis is about uncompetitive economies overspending. I hope the Greeks find reason.

Please come help me tell the lefties this in the Discussion Time section - us righties are out numbered and the left just keep to the simplistic notion that it's all down to Bankers and that a bit of regulation will solve our ills.

They just have not caught up with the curve that tells us the old European social contract needs a massive overhaul and is not compatible with a world full of consumers who shop around for lowest price.

FTBFun

pinkteapot wrote: »

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-punch-gift-horse-in-the-face-201111014490/

In case anyone can't click through, there is a caption underneath the picture saying:

"The horse is also better at collecting income tax than anyone in Greece"

:rotfl:

kabayiri

pinkteapot wrote: »

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-punch-gift-horse-in-the-face-201111014490/

Greeks and horses eh?

They have never had a good relationship, especially with wooden ones