Do Greek voters think they can just go on spending more than they earn forever?

A._Badger

julieq wrote: »

T
Democracy is NOT about allowing voters a say on all issues - on many they are very poorly informed - but to elect leaders on general principles and allow them to decide issues. General elections are the ultimate referendum, and there will probably be one.

The Swiss would disagree with you. And Switzerland is better governed than any of that ragbag assembly calling itself the EU.

leveller2911

jamespmg44 wrote: »

To be fair to the Germans, why should they do anything for the good of the Greeks?

I'd be pretty peeved off if Cameron and co gave a huge amount of money to bail out !!!!less southern european states who lived on the never never.

I agree but Germany and France should shoulder some blame for letting Greece into the club, you reap what you sow and bending the rules so that weak Southern economies could join was always going to bite them in the butt.....

How on earth Papandreou can call off a referendum after calling one a couple of days before is beyond me.Whatever happend to integrity? honesty?.

IMO they should have a referendum on such an important decision.Its far too important to leave to dishonest politicians.Politicians say the electorate are not educated enough to understand the facts but they sure as hell are educated enough to vote in a General Election...

sabretoothtigger

They can always vote out the PM via confidence vote. Reason that referendum is not required is that the main parties were in agreement with the bailout terms, there was enough adverse effects from delaying that signing up now was a reasonable choice

I happen to not agree with the bailout but politically he has not done anything radical by going ahead. Their in a corner whatever happens, they cant win and drastic cuts are seriously the best choice to regain control, its possible they may realise that in time

pqrdef

jamespmg44 wrote: »

To be fair to the Germans, why should they do anything for the good of the Greeks?

Because that's why people join clubs and unions - mutual support. The Germans have done very well out of the the EU and the euro. Too well, because policies that suited the Germans worked to other countries' disadvantage.

Now we're coming to the realisation that the economic problems of the EU are problems of the whole EU. Opening up borders means that Greek defaults are liable to take down French banks.

The obvious corollary is that the resources of the EU have to be brought to bear on those problems. People are taking a bit longer to understand that.

Graham_Devon

I have to say, as much as it annoys me to say this, Ed Balls was spot on last night on Newsnight about all this. Of course, he was completely disagreeing with what he says about UK politics, but basically he was saying Germany can simply not enforce mass misery on the Greeks. The more you do so, the bigger the problem becomes and the more misery you have to impose. Merkel and Sarkozy are simply demanding and dictating Austerity they know full well cannot be implemented, but don't give a fig about the greek people.

He implicitly said, you can not fix debt problems with more debt....and yes he did get picked up on it.

There is simply NO WAY Greece can EVER pay this money back. All they can do, even with projections in 10 years AND the added austerity, is pay the interest, i.e. service the debt. And even the projections suggest, even with the austerity not yet imposed, they won't be able to service all of the debt, so each month / year, the interest goes up again, and they get further and further behind.

The only way for Greece not to go bust, or to sole this problem is to have continued support from Germany. And again, this ONLY pays the interest not the debt.

Everyone suggested democracy in this respect was dead, and George was right to ask the people if they wished to take on this burden, but Sarkozy simply would not let it happen, and this experiment with the Euro HAS to stop unless they wish to drag the entire world down with them, which it seems, at the moment, according to our politicians, they are hell bent in doing.

There is apparently to be a large scale credit crunch in 2012, bigger than what we saw in 2008. If Greece isn't out of the Euro, or bust by Christmas, the credit crunch we will see in 2012 will be bigger than anything we could imagine....according to politicians and economists.

As one of them said, the Greeks are simply being punished at the moment for being Greek. However, they will be the first to stop being punished when they default and dust themselves down. It will then move on to the rest of us. And the longer Sarkozy and Merkel try to dictate and try to keep this dream alive, the harsher the punishment will be when it turns to us and the rest of Europe.

Graham_Devon

Oh and another good point bought up last night, though think it was on This Week after question time, was that so far, the Eurocrats have done nothing, and bought absolutely nothing to the table to deal with the DEBT problem.

Every item they have bought to the table so far involves policies involving people and establishments not even consuled, but expected to agree "or else". Every single policy bought to the table so far revolves around making others suffer to make the few better, or else.

And what's more, every single policy bought to the table so far only deals with servicing the debt. It includes making the debt larger, therefore making servicing the debt harder.

Not one single policy so far has been bought to the table to deal with the root problem. And the reason? They can't. It's too big and has to fail.

Really2

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I have to say, as much as it annoys me to say this, Ed Balls was spot on last night on Newsnight about all this. Of course, he was completely disagreeing with what he says about UK politics, but basically he was saying Germany can simply not enforce mass misery on the Greeks. The more you do so, the bigger the problem becomes and the more misery you have to impose. Merkel and Sarkozy are simply demanding and dictating Austerity they know full well cannot be implemented, but don't give a fig about the greek people.

He implicitly said, you can not fix debt problems with more debt

Does it not include a 50% write down of debt? So how is the current package more debt? surely it is less debt and more finance to help them meet their obligations.

What do you think will happen to the greek people if they default?
Who will pay the public sector wages etc?

It's all very well saying about dictating austerity, but the instant effects of default will be a lot worse than the austerity measures?

The best thing for greece is to possibly leave the euro so they can devalue.

But I do find your view on greece a bit odd GD as I do not think you share the same views on mortgage debt etc? EG people could just walk away?

What ever Greece does they will have to face austerity, they spend more than they generate.

As one of them said, the Greeks are simply being punished at the moment for being Greek

What!!!!
Were the Irish being punished for being Irish?
The Greeks are being "punished" for having massive Debt and basically being insolvent, their government has to take a massive amount of the blame for that.
That quote is just emotive crap. It would be the same for any other country in their situation using the euro. It is nothing to do with their nationality.

IronWolf

Greece have austerity and years of turmoil whether they default or not. Something people don't seem to understand. Merkozy aren't punishing Greece, they are offering them a way out. If Greece would be perfectly fine after default, they wouldn't have accepted the bailouts.

Greece knows it needs the rest of Europe on its side. They dont have anything we need, and if they renege on the debts they owe us, there will be devastating consequences for them.

ILW

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I have to say, as much as it annoys me to say this, Ed Balls was spot on last night on Newsnight about all this. Of course, he was completely disagreeing with what he says about UK politics, but basically he was saying Germany can simply not enforce mass misery on the Greeks. The more you do so, the bigger the problem becomes and the more misery you have to impose. Merkel and Sarkozy are simply demanding and dictating Austerity they know full well cannot be implemented, but don't give a fig about the greek people.

.

The Greeks have bought mass misery on themselves by overspending and overborrowing, this is the bit they seem incapable of accepting. How they are now trying to blame the Germans is just ridiculous.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Not one single policy so far has been bought to the table to deal with the root problem. And the reason? They can't. It's too big and has to fail.

I've not checked to see how true this is. However haven't EU interest rates just been reduced to try and stimulate some growth? Some growth in the Greek economy would certainly help them. If there's growth in the EU some of the members might feel more inclined to help more.