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Cpt.Scarlet

A_Flock_Of_Sheep wrote: »

So which mental health conditions score 15 points?

There are seven WCA tests that are related to mental health, all of them have a maximum score of 15 points, six of then also provide entry to the Support Group.

Cpt.Scarlet

woodbine wrote: »

so would that then be limited to 12 months?

If you are placed in the WRAG but not if you are in the Support Group.

nannytone_2

i'm going to be really unpopular now...

i think the support group should only be open for people who's conditions cannot get better!
everyone else should be in the work related group.
JSA is only paid on contributions for 6 months, so a concession is already made for illness.

in theory it would be possible for someone that has only ever worked for 2 years to keep claiming ESA forever, where as someone who has worked for 20 years......had a few years off to raise kids and then become ill, would get nothing!

no system is ever going to be fair, but people in dire financial need will still receive ESA under the income based benefit.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cpt.Scarlet wrote: »

There are seven WCA tests that are related to mental health, all of them have a maximum score of 15 points, six of then also provide entry to the Support Group.

Which 7 ?

The July 2011 LCW descriptors that give 15 points are :

(a) Activity
Cannot either: (i) mobilise more than 50 metres on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion; or (ii) repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.
(b) Standing & Sitting
Cannot move between one seated position and another seated position located next to one another without receiving physical assistance from another person
(c) Reaching
Cannot raise either arm as if to put something in the top pocket of a coat or jacket.
(d) Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of the upper body and arms.
Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.
(e) Manual dexterity.
Cannot either: (i) press a button, such as a telephone keypad; or (ii) turn the pages of a book with either hand or (iii) Cannot pick up a £1 coin or equivalent with either hand.
(f) Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing, or other means normally used, unaided by another person.
Cannot convey a simple message, such as 15 the presence of a hazard. Has significant difficulty conveying a simple message to strangers.
(g) Understanding communication by both verbal means (such as hearing or lip reading) and non-verbal means (such as reading 16 point print) using any aid it is reasonable to expect them to use, unaided by another person. Can not understand a simple message due to sensory impairment, such as the location of a fire escape. Has significant difficulty understanding a simple message from a stranger due to sensory impairment.
(h) Navigation and maintaining safety, using a guide dog or other aid if normally used.
Unable to navigate around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment. Cannot safely complete a potentially hazardous task such as crossing the road, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment.
(i) Absence or loss of control leading to extensive evacuation of the bowel and/or bladder, other than enuresis (bedwetting) despite the presence of any aids or adaptations normally used.
At least once a month experiences: (i) loss of control leading to extensive evacuation of the bowel and/or voiding of the bladder; or (ii) substantial leakage of the contents of a collecting device sufficient to require cleaning and a change in clothing.
(j) Consciousness during waking moments.
At least once a week, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration.
(j) Learning tasks.
Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock.
(k) Awareness of everyday hazards (such as boiling water or sharp objects).
Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to a significant risk of: (i) injury to self or others; or (ii) damage to property or possessions such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety
(l) Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).
Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions.
(m) Getting About
Cannot get to any specified place with which the claimant is familiar.
(n) Coping with social engagement due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.
(o) Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace. Frequently has uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.

System

nannytone wrote: »

i'm going to be really unpopular now...

i think the support group should only be open for people who's conditions cannot get better!
everyone else should be in the work related group.
JSA is only paid on contributions for 6 months, so a concession is already made for illness.

in theory it would be possible for someone that has only ever worked for 2 years to keep claiming ESA forever, where as someone who has worked for 20 years......had a few years off to raise kids and then become ill, would get nothing!

no system is ever going to be fair, but people in dire financial need will still receive ESA under the income based benefit.

Would you include life long conditions? How long would they have to have had it etc to count?

Also you could extend it by saying only those who are terminally ill should be allowed in the support group and everyone else should be in the WRAG.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cpt.Scarlet wrote: »

The simple facts are that the two groups are completely artificial, someone can qualify for the Support Group and be ready to return to work in six months and someone can score 100+ points in the WCA (15 required), with a degenerative and incurable illness such as MS,. and still fail to qualify for the SG and have no hope of every working again.

This has nothing to do with "enabling" claimants back into work, it's not about providing the "correct" support for the sick and disabled, it's all about saving money even if it means that the best part of a 1/2 million people will be £100s per month worse off as a result.

Agreed .. .. and its a load of ******** anyway - these reforms won't lead to a deficit reduction by 2015, it will still be many billions minus until 2018-2020 you don't need a calculator or spreadsheet for that.

It'll cost a lot more in the first years and will be a slow reduction for the next three or four years, by which time it may well be a different administration.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cpt.Scarlet wrote: »

There are seven WCA tests that are related to mental health, all of them have a maximum score of 15 points, six of then also provide entry to the Support Group.

C'mon Cpt Scarlet .. .. I wanna watch the rest of Pink Floyd [ Cpt.Scarlet - Current Activity: Viewing Thread ESA claimants next Monday - Heads Up ! ] and you've been viewing this thread for [STRIKE]over a quarter of an hour[/STRIKE] - twenty minutes

rogerblack

nannytone wrote: »

i'm going to be really unpopular now...

i think the support group should only be open for people who's conditions cannot get better!
everyone else should be in the work related group.

The problem with this approach is that there isn't a good equivalence between 'can't get better', and 'can work'.

Consider someone who is currently eligable for the support group - they are well educated, did not happen to drive. They get epilepsy, and have a fit every 5 days or so, which does not affect them for more than a few minutes at a time, and they get plenty of warning before attacks. For the sake of argument - say this will never get better.

And then consider someone who can just about learn to use a washing machine, if shown several times, and can manage only simple language.

They are in the work-related group.

A more sane system of employment and support allowance would have the second person treated less harshly than the first, as their needs are far higher, and their ability to work is far lower.

The current system is broken.
Firstly as there is a disconnect between ESA and JSA.
You can be - on the same unargued facts - not entitled to ESA, yet not entitled to JSA.

Secondly, the massive problem that the ESA tests do not actually test employability.
The recent update to the descriptors is problematic in that it removed some of the low-scoring descriptors, which make people with multiple disabilities who are not realistically employable not qualify.

But the whole idea of a tick-box employability assesment has real problems.

The only reasonably sane approach would take more actual time with the claimant.
Firstly - some sort of quick screening which picks out the clearly unemployable, and those that should not have to work on compassionate grounds (death expected within 6 months, ...).

Then something akin to the work program, where people are assessed over a longer period, and given help with making themselves more employable, or if this is found not to be possible, moved back into the support group.

Combine this with significantly relaxing the 'permitted work' rules, and allowing people on ESA (or whatever replaces it) to work as their condition permits, and you might have something a lot fairer.

System

The system does need an overhaul just not the one its getting...

On a good day i could possibly cope with a few hours of work, but on a bad day i'd either be acting completly inappropriatly (manic) or unable to function at any level (depressed). Right now i have more bad days than good. My psych currently isn't happy for me to work, she wants me to be stable for at least 3 months (not up or down-just normal) before i een go down that route-any sooner and i will relapse. But the meds i'm on now aren't working. And i was going to have to wait 4 months to see her again to get them changed (thankfully i'm seeing her next week).

I'm scared of being in the WRAG and forced on the work programme. I'd either find myself fired or try and kill myself the way i feel right now.

I don't know what the answer is.

It all sucks.

Cpt.Scarlet

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Which 7 ?

See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/228/made/data.pdf

It's the seven under the Mental, cognitive and intellectual function assessment heading