We are all in this together, well not if you are in a union.

The_White_Horse

marklv wrote: »

So what? Should public sector accountant salaries be pegged at the lowest levels in the private sector? Why should they? I believe they should be pegged at the 'big firm' levels or at the levels of other organisations of the same size and budget as the public sector organisations employing these accountants.

but an accountant in a big firm is earning his keep by billing and making a profit - he he makes no profit, he will lose his job.

meanwhile the accountant working in the public sector makes no money - but is just a drain on public resources. if the public sector accountant wants to earn a big firm wage, he could, lets see.... hmmmm.. i know - work at a big firm. the problem is, he wouldn't stand a chance in a big firm and he knows it.

My friend is a chartered accountant and they laugh at the revenue's accountants. they are a joke. wouldn't last 5 minutes in the real world. same with the CPS. They are useless and would last 5 minutes in a big firm. So many cases fail because of their incompetence. Now, you're answer, like many lefties, is probably to throw more money at it. that is not the answer.

public sector workers are generally the failures. thank god there is no proper divide between private and public health care or else you would see a massive difference in the standard of doctors. the decent ones would work private and the failures that couldn't hack it in the real world would be at the nhs.

Teachers the same. So many are soooooo bad. They fail the kids. Many teachers in private schools don't even have teaching diplomas yet are 100% better than the state school teachers? why? If we pay the idiot 30% more will they be 30% better? I don't think so.

Public sector - the biggest cancer and threat to the economy

The_White_Horse

ILW wrote: »

Green eyed monster again.
The thing many fail to realise is that many of these people are very clever and have the knowledge and contacts to earn their employers a lot onf money.
A question for Mr Cross.
If someone were to give you say £1million pounds, would you be able to give it back with a sizeable increase by the end of the month? The men who earn a fortune in the city are the ones that can.

if alan cross worked in the public sector and was given 1mGBP at the end of the month he would have wasted the entire 1mGBP and would be demanding another 2mGBP of magic money. sickening cretins.

misskool

The_White_Horse wrote: »

Teachers the same. So many are soooooo bad. They fail the kids. Many teachers in private schools don't even have teaching diplomas yet are 100% better than the state school teachers? why? If we pay the idiot 30% more will they be 30% better? I don't think so.

I'm not disputing the worthiness of the public sector employee but I'd just like to point out that private schools get better teachers because they pay more. If the public schools paid what the private schools paid they might get the same quality of teachers. There is no doubt that teachers are underpaid for what they do.

Really2

misskool wrote: »

I'm not disputing the worthiness of the public sector employee but I'd just like to point out that private schools get better teachers because they pay more. If the public schools paid what the private schools paid they might get the same quality of teachers. There is no doubt that teachers are underpaid for what they do.

Devils advocate.

But are they not paid more because they are better, not better because they are paid more?
If you are an outstanding teacher you could go to a private school surely?
But how much better are they off after paying for an equiverlent pension as a state one?

I do not think teachers would some how all get to very high standards just becasue you paid them more TBH some will always be better than others.

I don't think teaching is as restrictive on pay as some think, it just means more work getting to the higher scales.

I think heads jobs are very well paid in reality, there would not be many private sector jobs so highly paid for managing such a small budget (obviously it is not about the budget but it is the only comparable measure)

Generali

misskool wrote: »

I'm not disputing the worthiness of the public sector employee but I'd just like to point out that private schools get better teachers because they pay more. If the public schools paid what the private schools paid they might get the same quality of teachers. There is no doubt that teachers are underpaid for what they do.

My mother worked in a private school as a properly qualified teacher for nearly 30 years and spent the entire time on the pay scale as the state sector. AIUI, that is pretty normal although some pay more than the Government and conditions can be better because you don't have the same CYA paperwork to complete.

bendix

If this thread summarises anything to me, it is the growing resentment the private sector feels towards the selfish and complacent 'rights' culture of the public sector - so typified in marklv's attitude.

This trend has been growing for months on this forum. The public sector employee thinks he should be protected from the real world, that pay rises are guaranteed, that inefficiencies that wouldnt be tolerated in the private sector should be resolved by throwing more resources at the issue, and that a culture of mediocrity is ok. It is a culture fostered by a union mentality which has lives back in the 1960s and 1970s and has no place in a modern dynamic society.

It is a them and us culture that their sense of entitlement has created.

I used to think White Horse was a bit extreme in his views - the more this nonsense prevails though, the more I support his pov.

I like marklv's comments on this board. They feed the growing sense of outrage that will ensure the public sector is slashed in future.

I for one will take great pleasure in seeing it happen.

misskool

Really2 wrote: »

Devils advocate.

But are they not paid more because they are better, not better because they are paid more?
If you are an outstanding teacher you could go to a private school surely?
But how much better are they off after paying for an equiverlent pension as a state one?

I do not think teachers would some how all get to very high standards just becasue you paid them more TBH some will always be better than others.

I don't think teaching is as restrictive on pay as some think, it just means more work getting to the higher scales.

I think heads jobs are very well paid in reality, there would not be many private sector jobs so highly paid for managing such a small budget (obviously it is not about the budget but it is the only comparable measure)

Of course you can't always filter out the bad ones, happens in every industry. Do you think you could get better teachers if you paid them what premier league footballers were paid? (just as hypothetical question of course).

I totally get what you're saying, just that I don't understand why some professions that are more 'worthy' aren't due more recognition

chewmylegoff

marklv wrote: »

Sensible and reasonable as long as you are not directly affected.

i am directly affected. i work in the public sector and have had my pay frozen this year - not even the "brutal" 1% payrise.

The only reason the average public sector salary is higher is because there is a larger number of professional people in the public sector. The private sector includes toilet cleaners, shop assistants, waiters and the like.

a large part of this is because the lower paid jobs have been outsourced to private sector companies, taking the jobs (but not the cost) outside the public sector.

your theory is that these people (who are unlikely to have had anything better than a pay freeze in the last couple of years) should be taxed more than they need to be so the better paid people remaining inside the public sector can continue to have payrises which the lower paid staff are no longer entitled to. presumably you don't think this is unfair.

There is money if the savings can be made in other ways, and I believe they can.

sorry, but the reality is that they cannot. savings need to be made everywhere, we cannot afford to borrow money unnecessarily so that the public sector can be paid more.

I was referring to social breakdown in case of a hypothetical 25% pay cut, not a 1% pay cap. But don't expect people to accept a government imposed pay cap - there will be strikes, to be sure.

yes, and the real losers from the strikes will be the workers, who will lose money and benefits, and have to return to work eventually. the unions don't have the financial resources to pay meaningful strike pay for long periods to large numbers of workers.

ironically, any strike will actually save the government money as they won't have to pay the striking workers. further, it would only be a week or so before the cost of striking to the individual workers outweighed the benefit they would hope to gain from going on strike.

as usual, the people whom the unions persuade to strike will be the ones who lose out.

lostinrates

Generali wrote: »

My mother worked in a private school as a properly qualified teacher for nearly 30 years and spent the entire time on the pay scale as the state sector. AIUI, that is pretty normal although some pay more than the Government and conditions can be better because you don't have the same CYA paperwork to complete.

It might work out as better par per hours because of staffing levels and time spent on various things? But I don't know: some privtae schools have longer days and saturdays too of course.

In any case, it might also offer a different, perhaps at times to some people, preferable working environment?

The_White_Horse

misskool wrote: »

I'm not disputing the worthiness of the public sector employee but I'd just like to point out that private schools get better teachers because they pay more. If the public schools paid what the private schools paid they might get the same quality of teachers. There is no doubt that teachers are underpaid for what they do.

every teacher knows the pay scale when they sign up for teaching. if they think it is too low for them, why do they do it? why don't the maths teachers become chartered accountants??? because they can't.

they get paid what they are worth. that is the long and short of it. they are in a job where they are virtually unsackable (unless they make an anti-pc remark) and have a brilliant pension and massive holidays.

If teachers hate the pay - they shouldn't become teachers. you'd think a teacher would have the brains to work that out - actually, under new labour and don't think teachers have brains anymore - but pay them more, and magically, they will become better teachers. amazing that.