Bill received. I protest. Any advice? Help!

Ben_Vorlich

Hello folks,

Long-time browser and first-time poster.

I'm hoping that users might be able to offer some advice regarding electrical work carried out at my flat, the amount I've been charged and what my next steps should be.


[A brief outline]
I rent the property out.
British Gas Homecare engineer issued notice to get meter bonded.
I arranged through Home Glow (yellow pages) for an electrician to carry out the work.
Electrician arrived 11:00. Job completed 14:00
Material costs £23.40
Labour 3 x £69 = £207.00
VAT £40.32
TOTAL £270.72

[My concerns]
Tenant informs me that electrician vacated property for approx 1 hour.
Approx 40 mins after electrician left tenant receives call from Home Glow informing that electrician has to visit suppliers to purchase materials.
Electrician returns and continues with work very slowly because his power tools are not charged properly.

After receiving a phone call from Home Glow to inform of cost I query the times/costs & am told that sub-contractors are allowed to bill for one hours travelling to/from suppliers.
Has it occured to Home Glow that some contractors, when aware of this, may be unscrupulous enough to charge for an extra hour? (Afterthought- did the electrician selflessly postpone his lunch hour?)
I proposed that Home Glow/electrician supply receipts detailing the time goods were purchased. Receptionist refuses to be drawn on the matter and passes the buck to her manager.

After arranging with the nice lady at Home Glow to carry on my negotiations with her manager when he returns from holiday (today) I receive a phone call from the electrician himself!!

In a beligerent tone he brusquely enquires what the problem is and tells me that the bill MUST be paid.
I remain calm & ask if he is normally satisfied with customers arranging work & corresponding through Home Glow then why must I enter into negotiations with him? My contract is with Home Glow after all, no?
He disagrees and states that my contract is with him and the bill must be paid.
I state that I'm negotiating with Home Glow and the matter will be resolved through those channels.
He hangs up.

I receive a call later that evening from my tenant informing of a hole in the hall carpet just inside the front door that appears to be caused by a burn.
The tenant is a trustworthy type so after seeing the burn I think for a moment about the disgruntled electrician and come to the conclusion that whilst engaged in the work he put down his power tool and the hot drill bit has scorched/burnt the carpet. (I am slightly bewildered/bothered by the burn being so near the front door/letter box & round the corner from the gas meter & fuse box).
The hole wasn't there 2-3 days previous when I last was in the property.

After seeing the work undertaken, a gas engineer subsequently stated to me that it was a "20 minute job". I would concur - running cable from the gas meter through an internal wall & into junction/fuse box which sits at the same height and is less than 4 feet away.

I am yet to speak to the Home Glow dept manager so would like to ask if any readers have any advice.

Thank you in advance for any helpful posts.

keystone

1. Minimum charge = 1 hour perhaps. 20 minute job = min charge of one hour.

2. If Homeglow allow their techs to charge 1 hour to and 1 hour from collecting parts thats their problem really. Did Homeglow inform you of minimum charge and /or allowance for going to collect parts. But an issue may be did you have a reasonable expectation that it would be a Homeglow employee? Did you ask?

3. However, the job was known (meter required bonding). It seems inconceivable that he would not have had required materials on his van as stock and in any event knowing what the job was if he did not he could have stopped off on the way - but that would mean he couldn't charge the extra time.

3. Did the sparks give you the bill? In that case its payable to him not to Homeglow. He probably has to pay Homeglow for the privelege of the lead in the first place and that will be a cost chargeable against the job.

If it were me I'd be having another serious go at Homeglow (you know the "this is completely unacceptable" rountine) but when the chips are down I suspect you may just have to pay up and look big. I think (just my opinion) that you have been ripped off by both Homeglow and the sparks and I feel the latter is playing his relationship with Homeglow well to his advantage and your detriment.

Moral of the story - don't use someone completely unknown to you out of yellow pages and if you have to ask a complete set of questions before you do.

Sorry not to be more help.

Cheers

Ben_Vorlich

Keystone,

Thanks for your input.
Yes, I was expecting to pay at least one hours labour cost. Three seems excessive, especially when it looks like I'm paying for the sparks lunch.

I would've thought that he'd have been informed of the job description & arrived ready to proceed. Like you say- should've asked in advance.

The bill is from Home Glow so I will be continuing my negotiations with them.

Any thoughts about if they can or cannot/will not supply proof of time of purchase of parts?

Thanks again.

ohyeahitssorcy

£23.40 for parts ? let me see 1 earth clamp = about £1.00 lets say 2m of 6mm earth cable £5 (and thats pushing it) maybe a handful of cable clips so in reality about £6 for parts and since when can you charge to go and get something that any decent electrician should have on his van ..... absolutely ridiculous.

Personally speaking i would tell them to take a flying leap 1 hours labour MAX if the electrician hasnt got what he needs for such a simple job then tough thats not your problem.

Did you agree or sign to say that you would be liable for any travelling done to the wholesaler if not then tell them to s0d off i dont see how they could possibly force you to pay this.

Sounds like some of the locksmithing companies that charge over a £100 to slip a bit of plastic in your door and let you in.

*Had to think for a moment but reactfast is one to avoid bl00dy rip off merchants who will fleece you out of as much money as possible**

baldelectrician

It depends on how the company run their business

Scenario 1 :
comapny charge £25.00 per hour, have NO materials in van. Arrive on site, survey job and get materials.
1 hour is added to every job and min job (with ANY materials) is £50.

Scenario 2 : (this is how I work)
Sus out job on phone, get materials and arrive on site to do work (labour rate is £37.50 per hour for me AND apprentice).
Short job (say an easy bond) £40.00-£50.00 including materials

Please remember scenario 2 adds to business costs (as you only charge for on site time and pay to have a fair amount of stock travelling round the country)

Customers phone up and ask for the labour rate sometimes miss the bigger picture.
I know of a local company who remove an item (say a light fitting) take it to the workshop, fit a lamp / fuse and then bring it back.
They could easily get 2-3 items from the store / wholesaler and fit the correct part there and then.

This is one reason I do not work for larger companies as they want their pound of flesh too (it all has to be paid by the end client- who ultimately loses out)

Ben_Vorlich

The correspondance so far:

Subject: F.A.O. The Managing Director of Home Glow
!
!
Dear Sir/Madam,
!
I own the property at XXXXXXX where one of your employees/colleagues/contractors undertook some electrical work on the 4th February 2010.
The details of the electrician’s movements on that day & his subsequent billing calculations have caused me some concern and it is with these details in mind that I write to you.
!
The electrician was given access to the property by the tenant in order that he may bond the gas meter as per my instructions when the job was booked.
!
Upon completion of the job I was ‘phoned & informed of the cost. I then spoke with the tenant to ascertain if the work had been carried out as required/described.
!
It transpires that the electrician vacated the property for approximately one hour between his start time of 11:00 & end time of 14:00.
Approximately forty minutes after the electrician vacated the property a Home Glow employee ‘phoned the tenant to inform him that the electrician would have to buy materials.
!
The tenant also informed me that, not only did the electrician arrive without adequate materials to complete a simple job, but also that his power tools were so poorly charged that the progress on the job was painfully slow. It should be noted again that I described the general requirements of the job when I booked your services several days before.
!
With these details in mind I then called Home Glow to query the validity of the electricians claim that 3 hours of labour costs be charged. I asked if Home Glow and/or the electrician would be able to supply receipts for the goods purchased during the hours in question. I was told that the department manager, Alan Rankin, would be able to deal fully with my requests and that he would be returning from holiday on Monday 8th February. I was to expect a call from Mr Rankin. No call was received.
!
Shortly after making this call to Home Glow I received a call from the electrician who carried out the work.
In a very terse and agitated manner he brusquely demanded that I explain what my problem was and that the bill MUST be paid.
I asked that if he is normally satisfied to let Home Glow deal with customers’ enquiries/bookings/payments etc then should he not allow me to continue to deal with Home Glow directly? My contract after all is with Home Glow, I explained. He disagreed and was of the opinion that my contract was with him. In a manner some might describe as threatening he demanded again that I explain what my concerns were and that I pay the bill immediately.
Despite the alarming nature of this unexpected phone call I remained calm and said I would be continuing to deal solely with Home Glow. He hung up.
!
I cannot overstate how unacceptable it is to be harassed for payment from an unknown caller when I had already instigated a line of communication directly with those responsible for taking my booking.
!
The following day another engineer at the property confirmed that the job should not really have taken more than 1 hour and that the materials used would be standard items to have in stock.
!
In short, my concerns are that I am being overcharged for labour.
!
Please note that I am happy to pay for the goods and services but will only do so under extreme protest, thereafter continuing to seek legal advice and compensation.
!
Please be advised that all the above information has been forwarded to both the Citizen’s Advice Bureau and the Glasgow Trading Standards office.
!
I look forward to your reply.
!
Yours faithfully,
!

Ben_Vorlich

Home Glow's response:

Thank you for your e-mail, dated 09th February 2009, and your subsequent letter received on the 15th February.! Firstly let me apologise for the delay in responding to your initial e-mail.! We have had a serious fault with our broadband connection since the 1st of February and BT have only just managed to remedy it this week, which meant we could not send or receive e-mails during this time.! Your e-mail arrived alongwith the rest of the enquires when we went back online on Monday.
!
I have reviewed your correspondence, and I understand your complaint falls into 3 main areas.!
- Firstly, that the engineer did not have adequate materials to complete the job, having to leave the premises to collect these.
- Secondly, that you did not get a call back from myself to discuss the matter as promised.
- Thirdly, that you were unhappy with the way our engineer spoke with yourself on the phone.
!
Our engineers carry a certain amount of ‘Van Stock’ with them, based on what materials they would normally need to use for day to day jobs.! On occasion they may require some material that they wouldn’t normally be expected to carry, or simply have run out of those which they do carry.! On these occasions, we are permitted by law to charge up to and including an hour for the time taken to go and source these parts and return.! However, having reviewed the original job booking, I accept that this is material that we would normally carry and that if he had run out he should have sourced this before attending the job.!
!
With this in mind, I will reduce the labour rate by 1 hour accordingly.
!
On the point of you not receiving a call back as promised, I can only apologise.! Unfortunately my time over the last few weeks has been spent between essential tasks and working with our telecoms people to get our IT issues resolved, which has unfortunately left me catching up with any correspondence received in that period.
!
The issue I was most concerned with was the fact our engineer had called you and demanded payment for the job.! It is company policy that the only reason an engineer should ever call a customer is for directions or to impart technical information that the office staff could not.! I have spoken to the office staff involved, who mistakenly thought the engineer was only going to call to talk you through the work that was done.! I can only apologise if our engineer overstepped his remit and spoke to you in a manner that was inappropriate.
!
I hope the reduction of 1 hour Labour on the job will resolve any issue in regards to the outstanding amount and I will have our accounts team send out confirmation of this in writing.
!
Should you need to discuss this further, please do not hesitate to contact me.
!
Alan Rankin
(contact details removed)

Ben_Vorlich

My latest response:

Dear Mr Rankin,

Thank you for your email dated 17th February 2010.

I appreciate you taking the time to review the case in hand and am pleased that you agree that it was unnecessary and/or avoidable that the engineer should have to charge an extra hours labour.
However, I believe this only partly addresses the over-charging issue.

My concern is that as the person who would be responsible for the bill was not present, the engineer felt able to levy any charge he liked (and take as long over the job – see my previous email regarding uncharged power tools etc) regardless of how long the job should actually have taken.
Therefore, I am very keen to understand the details of the engineers claim. In short, what caused the job to take over an hour to complete?
I am hoping that you might supply me with an explanation as to why drilling a hole through an internal wall and clamping no more than 3 metres of cable to a meter and fuse box should take any longer than one hour. I am more than happy to meet with either yourself or the engineer at the premises where the work was undertaken and have explained to me the time consuming elements of the work.

I note also that my request to see a receipt for the parts purchased has not been addressed. After taking advice from trade persons and consumer & trading standards offices I investigated the costs involved and calculated that 4 metres of 16mm single core cable (approx £1.00-1.30 per metre, +VAT) and 2 earth clamps (approx £1.50 each + VAT) should cost no more than £10.00 retail.
Please can you supply a breakdown of the costs incurred and forward to me a copy of the receipt issued for the purchase of materials. I would like to know how the cost of the materials was reached.

I am very pleased that you were ‘most concerned’ about the alarm, distress and inconvenience caused by your engineer harassing me for payment. In light of this I trust that you will be willing to undertake a review of the issues noted above.

Many thanks for your continued assistance.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,



So far no reply..........

I'd be interested to know what fellow MSE readers think.
Thanks in advance for any comments/help.

Stonk

ohyeahitssorcy wrote: »

£23.40 for parts ? let me see 1 earth clamp = about £1.00 lets say 2m of 6mm earth cable £5 (and thats pushing it) maybe a handful of cable clips so in reality about £6 for parts and since when can you charge to go and get something that any decent electrician should have on his van ..... absolutely ridiculous.

I would be embarrassed if I was an electrician and didn't carry around a supply of such utterly basic materials in my van. Those parts are needed constantly. They're regularly upgrading earths because of changes in the regulations, and the materials cost less than peanuts.

Although the cost for parts doesn't represent the majority of the overall price and you might not query it individually, the whole case does hinge on the fact that he claims to have had to go to a supplier, which he plainly shouldn't have had to do, if he was any kind of decent spark.

keystone

Ben_Vorlich wrote: »

My latest response:

snip

snip

Thanks in advance for any comments/help.

I think you are on the right track. If they hadn't taken the proverbrial in the first instance and presented you with a bill for 2 hours + £23 bits (even if OTT) + the dreaded you'd probably have just paid up and been happy. Serve 'em right for being greedy.

Cheers

Cheers

baldelectrician

Stonk wrote: »

and the materials cost less than peanuts.

I would be to differ on that point.

Cable (as it is made from copper and pvc) has shot up 40% in the past 6 months.

It is 3-4 times what it was 5 years ago

Shower cable (10mm) was £42 for 50mtr. It is over £120 for the same amount now.

In the main point- I still think the guy was over egging things as it were