Direct Debit problems and Legality of document forced to sign

darryldoo

Hi Everyone,

It’s my first time posting here so can I just say a quick congrats on some of the excellent content I have found on here, especially regarding Direct Debits as it has been of a great help to me over the past few months.

At present my wife and I are having a few problems with the Royal Bank of Scotland, this does revolve around Direct Debits and also has a bit of a history so please excuse as I just take a moment to recap on events that have already happened.

Previously we had a problem with a company (Sky) continuously attempting to set up Direct Debits on the account without our permission. At this time we had no contract with Sky as we had moved to a new supplier and we owed no money on our previously held Sky account. We did eventually manage to get this resolved and Sky eventually (and that’s a big eventually) admitted they were wrong.

While all of this was going on, my wife informed her bank of this however they continued to allow the Direct Debits to be set up and called for, we eventually found ourselves in the position where we were having to call the branch every morning to attempt to find out if anymore had been set up and if so we would then have to cancel them. This was made even more difficult by the fact that the bank would sometimes tell us that no Direct Debits had been set up by Sky when in fact there were and the first time that we would find out was when the money was deducted from the bank, even as I write this post, to date we are still in a position where this money has not been refunded, even though Sky have openly admitted it was an error.
Now all through this period with Sky continuously setting up these unauthorised Direct Debits we have had detailed discussions with the bank manager to attempt to rectify the problems however, not once did she ever suggest that I could claim indemnity under the Direct Debit Guarantee. In fact as previously stated, the times when money did go out to Sky she simply said that their was nothing that she could do as I was too late to cancel, even though it was the Bank that had failed to inform me that a Direct Debit had been set up as we were calling every day to check.

In fact on a few occasions the bank had informed us that Sky had set up and called for a Direct Debit on the same day, which I have now found out, could not happen but do you think my bank will listen.

During this period with the Sky Direct Debit problem and on one of the occasions where this unauthorised Direct Debit had been allowed to go through by the bank, my wife went through the whole rigmarole of contacting the bank, putting up with their serious attitude problems and attempting, yet again to cancel the Direct Debit however this time, one of the customer service assistants refused to cancel it. They then continued to state that they would only cancel this Direct Debit if my wife attended the bank and signed a hand written document that they had prepared.
My wife attended the branch and was given this document to sign; I have included the contents below.

“I my wifes name, agree and understand that I must give 3 business days notice to cancel any Direct Debits on the Bank Account.
I also understand that I must give 3 business days notice to cancel Standing orders and a signature must be obtained.
I understand that no “online reversals” will be authorised in the future. “

Just to clarify, this is just scribbled down on a piece of A4 paper and has not even been signed on behalf of the bank.(in fact I’m surprised it wasn’t written in crayon)

This document that my Wife had been forced to sign caused me great concern which brought me to this website where I found the excellent information regarding the Direct Debit Guarantee and our rights.
I would welcome any advice on this document and its legality as after looking into it I noticed that the Direct Debit Guarantee states that a Direct Debit can be cancelled at any time and furthermore the terms and conditions of the account are shown below and it does not state 3 working days anywhere..

5.3.1 If you want us to stop a cheque, or cancel a Standing Order or
Direct Debit instruction on your account, you should advise your
branch (or such other person(s) as we tell you) in writing, or by
telephone (followed by written confirmation). You will not be able
to stop a cheque or cancel a Standing Order or Direct Debit if you
do not advise us before we are committed to pay the cheque or
make the payment from your account. You must include the
following details:
(a) cheque – cheque number and date, your account number,
amount and name of payee;
(b) Standing Order – name of recipient, amount and frequency;
(c) Direct Debit – name of recipient, amount and frequency.
You cannot stop a cheque that has been guaranteed by your card.

I also take issue with the fact that the bank have admitted that no other customer has ever been asked to sign a document to this effect, this has deeply upset my wife as she feels as she has been singled out, furthermore when she was forced to sign this in order for her to cancel a Direct Debit that the bank already knew we were having problems with they were so nasty to her that she returned home in tears.


I honestly can not see how the bank can get away with forcing my wife into signing a document that infringes on the rights enjoyed by customers of the Royal Bank of Scotland.

So please please please, if anyone can advise on this I would be most happy to owe you a pint of Guinness.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, further time passed which brings us to last week and yes, im ashamed to say that I hadn’t done anything about this document.

Last week we had a problem with another unauthorised Direct Debit and so, armed with our new information we contacted the bank and reminded them of the Direct Debit guarantee... So far to date we have not had our money refunded even though the Guarantee states that we should get an immediate refund.
Last week we were promised numerous call backs regarding this however for some strange reason they claim that messages were not passed on. This Saturday just gone we got to speak to the assistant Manager who basically informed me that she has the power to make me wait 40 days while they investigate this and told me I should be grateful that they are taking our word that it is in fact an error. I then reminded her whose money it was in the bank account.

Today I got to speak to the manager who has basically informed me that the reason for the delay is the procedure used by the Royal Bank of Scotland (everything has to go through the service centre) and so it’s impossible for them to offer any of their customers an immediate refund under the Direct Debit Guarantee. The call was the ended by the Manager who informed me that: Her words “I don’t want to speak about it anymore”

With regards to their procedure, I find this very interesting as I can not see how they can claim to offer this guarantee when their procedures prevent them from doing this.

I have now arranged a meeting with the manager tomorrow to discuss this and the previous issues regarding this document that my wife was forced to sign however I’m just worried that its going to go around in circles as they do not seem to be listening to what I am saying at all and so if anyone can offer any advice/points regarding this I will be more than happy to use them in my meeting tomorrow.

So, just to recap, any advice on:

a) The legality of this document my wife was forced to sign and how to address this.
b) The issue with the Royal Bank of Scotland knowingly breaching the Direct Debit Guarentee.

would really be a great help to me/us


Thank you in advance of the great advice I know I will get here and my apologies for the length of this post

Jacob

alanq

They are in breach of the Banking Code.
http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/pdfdocs/PERSONAL_CODE_2008.PDF

We will deal quickly and sympathetically with things that go wrong.

We will tell you about the Direct Debit Guarantee, which protects you if a direct debit you have not authorised is taken from your account. If any money is wrongly taken from your account under a direct debit, we will refund your account as soon as you tell us about it.

Why not take your own scrap of paper to the meeting and invite the manager to sign that he acknowledges his obligations?
It may be worth speaking to Trading Standards about your problems both with RBS and Sky.http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/

It will be no comfort to you that RBS was ranked highly in a recent survey.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/saving-and-banking/article.html?in_article_id=451716&in_page_id=7

jonesMUFCforever

Whilst I sympathise with OP's predicament I do feel the bank were not at fault here.
D/D are set up by the companies like Sky under a system called AUDDIS.
Any D/D that has been debited from your account without authority will be refunded under the indemnity scheme.

It seems to me that they got tired of you checking on a daily basis -(a little over the top?) which is why they asked you to sign the ad hoc 'form'.

This complaint should be headed to Sky for an internal investigation.

alanq

OK Sky should not be setting up the Direct Debits but the bank should have systems in place to block DDs being set up from a specified organisation when there is known to be a dispute. As the banking code specifies disputed DD repayments should be refunded as soon as the bank is informed not over a month later.

Would it solve the problem if the bank simply closed the existing current account and transferred all legit Direct Debits and Standing Orders to a new one? It would be less work for them to just issue a couple of new cheque books. If they won't do that for you it's time to move your account to another bank. Of course you would then have to inform anyone who was paying money into the account that you are closing.

darryldoo

Hey all thanks for the replys so far... I am aware that the RBS have a good reputation, to be honest this is why we went with them.

I must stress that this is something that we would normally leave alone and not bother with however i honestly can not even beging to stress how nasty some of the members of staff at the branch have been... This is why i have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about it.

i would have to say that i disagree with jonesMUFC, as i do feel that the bank is at fault however i do, obviously respect your opinion. I/ we had informed the bank about the problems, in fact the Manager even asked if she could ring sky for us to sort this out as even she did not seem to believe the problems we were having however, at no time did the bank ever make me aware of the Direct Debit Indemnity (i did not know about it at the time) and instead they were happy to let my payment just go to Sky on a few occasions simply stating that their was nothing that they could do as we were to late to cancel.

A bit of an update.... I have managed to also arrange for my meeting to be minuted(notes taken) tomorrow and so i am going to attempt to get some form of explanation.

I personally feel that this document was the product of one of the customer services assistant being on a bit of a power trip as the first time i mentioned this to the manager she seemed a little surprised and said she was not able to comment.

Thbaks for the comments guys and any "awkward questions" i could put to the bank tomorrow would be more than welcome....

I just cant help think that its a little unfair that all Royal Bank of Scotland customers can cancel a Direct Debit at any time apart from my wife who now has to give 3 days notice because a customer services assistant says so.

Thanks again for any advice..

Jay vbmenu_register("postmenu_14053215", true);

YorkshireBoy

Assuming whatever contract you had with Sky was cancelled correctly as detailed in your T&C's, and you owe them no money...

Your bank do appear not to be dealing with you sympathetically.

Your bank is breaking the terms of the direct debit guarantee* by not refunding 'immediately'...in full...IN BRANCH as soon as you have reported the issue.

Your bank may not know that a direct debit is set up until the day of first claiming by Sky. Speaking from personal experience, some DD originators' DDI's are not listed in my online banking area and the first I know that one is set up is the day it is first called.

What you should do, in order to bring this to a speedy conclusion and assuming you haven't already done so, is to register formal complaints with both Sky and your bank.


* Just on terminology...your relationship with your bank falls under the Direct Debit Guarantee Scheme. Your bank's relationship with Sky falls under the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme. Consequently you do not need to concern yourself with the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme.

alanq

RBS are not getting a very good press! http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/saving-and-banking/article.html?in_article_id=451739&in_page_id=7