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  • FIRST POST
    bodybox
    South West Trains Penalty Fare
    • #1
    • 5th May 08, 7:50 PM
    South West Trains Penalty Fare 5th May 08 at 7:50 PM
    I used my Oyster card to access a train at Clapham Junction and disembarked at Waterloo station. A guard scanned my card at Waterloo and alerted a Revenue Controls Officer who was surprisingly pleased to advise me that I am to pay a £20 penalty for fare evasion. On questioning his decision making skills and trying to illustrate to him how his very existence makes the world a little bit worse for everybody, he called upon the support of a big-boned gentleman with a massive and very red face who spent a good ten minutes shouting, finger pointing and offering repeated threats of arrest. Having failed to introduce himself, it soon became clear that he was a manager of some sort.
    I would rather have paid the penalty on my own terms instead of being bullied into it by a trio of very angry men. This is as close to being mugged as I ever hope to get.
    And on checking my Oyster card account this afternoon, I find I have been charged for the journey between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.
    What I’m trying to find out is, who would I pursue, either TFL or South West Trains, for the reimbursement of the fee debited from my Oyster card account as I'm not very happy at the thought of paying the charge for the journey and then being fined for not paying for a ticket.

    I would also like the trio of lumpy-headed cretins that I had to deal with to be reprimanded for their bully-boy tactics although I suspect that this is what got them the job in the first place.
    Last edited by bodybox; 05-05-2008 at 9:32 PM.
Page 1
  • dzug
    • #2
    • 5th May 08, 8:18 PM
    • #2
    • 5th May 08, 8:18 PM
    Your PAYG Oyster card is not valid between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.

    The only line at Clapham Junction that it's valid on is that leading to Willesden Junction. What you've paid for is a journey on that line - and probably an incomplete journey at that.

    I doubt if you've any claim for a refund - you were correctly (even if rudely)charged a penalty fare by SWT, and incorrectly swiped your card instead of buying a ticket. Tfl may be sympathetic, they may not.
  • bodybox
    • #3
    • 5th May 08, 8:56 PM
    • #3
    • 5th May 08, 8:56 PM
    That's pretty much what I thought. I found information on the TFL website that states the fare for Clapham Junction to Waterloo is £2 using the Oyster card. And it's just here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/2008/farefinder/default.asp?results=true&from=Clapham+Junction+%5B London+Overground%5D&to=Waterloo&type=Adult&showfa res=Show+fares

    Swines
  • dzug
    • #4
    • 5th May 08, 9:00 PM
    • #4
    • 5th May 08, 9:00 PM
    Very strange - I suspect if you had travelled via West Brompton/ Earls Court and continued your journey by tube to Waterloo that would have been fine. That's the overground route. Waterloo SWT is not on the overground

    Definitely conflicting and confusing information being given out though - have a go at Tfl.
  • bodybox
    • #5
    • 5th May 08, 9:45 PM
    • #5
    • 5th May 08, 9:45 PM
    Yes, scoundrels. I will likely mail TFL.
  • bodybox
    • #6
    • 20th May 08, 7:35 PM
    SW Trains Penalty Fare
    • #6
    • 20th May 08, 7:35 PM
    Update: I spoke to someone at TFL and they informed me that my Oyster card isn't valid for the route listed and if I believed that the information found on their website (see above post) was misleading then this is my own fault for being incompetent. That's another thorny issue successfully tackled.
    • MarkyMarkD
    • By MarkyMarkD 20th May 08, 9:11 PM
    • 9,798 Posts
    • 4,216 Thanks
    MarkyMarkD
    • #7
    • 20th May 08, 9:11 PM
    • #7
    • 20th May 08, 9:11 PM
    dzug The route you quote wouldn't work either. There is NO way to get to Waterloo using London Overground and Oyster together, as http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/oyster-payg-on-national-rail.pdf shows. Having said that, the fare finder is completely misleading.

    It's a rubbish website too. If you use the route planner, you can't then find fares automatically. You have to click through to "fares and tickets" and then re-enter your details - which would then suggest that the fare you first referred to is available. It's mad!
    • dzug1
    • By dzug1 21st May 08, 12:31 PM
    • 13,363 Posts
    • 6,123 Thanks
    dzug1
    • #8
    • 21st May 08, 12:31 PM
    • #8
    • 21st May 08, 12:31 PM
    dzug The route you quote wouldn't work either. There is NO way to get to Waterloo using London Overground and Oyster together, as http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/oyster-payg-on-national-rail.pdf shows. Having said that, the fare finder is completely misleading.

    !
    Originally posted by MarkyMarkD
    Yes it does - you change to the Underground at West Brompton or even Kensington Olympia or Willesden Junction.

    I'd agree on the farefinder being misleading though
  • meester
    • #9
    • 21st May 08, 12:54 PM
    • #9
    • 21st May 08, 12:54 PM
    sounds like you made a mistake, put it out of your mind, move on, see your blood pressure fall.
  • bodybox
    Huzzah!!! Called IRCAS today to get an update on my penalty fare appeal and was informed that my rejection letter had recently been posted. I asked to speak to the folk that made that decision although was advised that this was impossible as they don't have mouths or ears. Ten minutes later I took a call from a young lady (a manager from IRCAS) who advised me she had looked at the case notes, recognised both that the information I used from the TFL website is misleading and that the inspector hadn't used "appropriate discretion" and I would be issued a refund for the full sum. This pleases me immensely. You'd like to think that bullying stopped in the playground but unfortunately it continues into adult life. By both large once nationally owned companies and burly, lumpy-headed individuals. Hooray for me. I will now print off the letter outlining my appeal success, march down to Waterloo, track down the trio of licensed muggers and demand they issue me an apology. Over the tannoy. Yes, I think that this may be taking things a little too far.
    Last edited by bodybox; 21-05-2008 at 8:23 PM.
  • womble100
    ircas need their arses kicked for refunding you.your gripe is with tfl not south west trains.some people are so thick they should not be out on their own.
    • RichyRich
    • By RichyRich 22nd May 08, 1:29 AM
    • 1,795 Posts
    • 2,134 Thanks
    RichyRich
    womble100, how do you know that the OP wasn't stopped by a SWT Revenue Inspector rather than a TfL Revenue Inspector?
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  • bodybox
    Hi again. the penalty fare was issued by SW Trains, so yes, whilst TFL are at fault (and subsequently, not the responsibility of SWT) this does not negate the fact that I did everything I could to prepare for the journey and was confident in my actions.
    Penalty fares used to be just that, discretion was used in their issue and the world was a better place for it. Now, the network operators choose to use this as an extra source of income, despite the merits of each individual case.
    Womble 100, I suspect you would be unable to think of an occasion whereby an appeal via IRCAS would be upheld, rendering their worth absolutely zero.
    In addition, the criteria with which IRCAS use to qualify appeals is dictated by the network operators which highlights a conflict of interest. Knowing this makes me happier with the outcome.
  • ticketcollector
    I agree with womble100 here, in part.
    IRCAS shouldnt have granted your appeal, but told TfL to refund it. Furthermore it was SWT that pf'd you not TfL. SWT did everything fine, TfL dont.
    Ex-Employee of a Train Operating Company.
    Ticket routing and rules expert.
    Been Penalty Fared on the Railway? PM me and Ill try to help you win your appeal.
    Been sent a summons on the Railway? PM me and Ill try to help you.
    • gner_ex
    • By gner_ex 23rd May 08, 11:33 AM
    • 280 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    gner_ex
    If I were you, I'd make a complaint (to London TravelWatch) about the TfL website.
  • ironchris
    Madder by name...
    I agree with womble100 here, in part.
    IRCAS shouldnt have granted your appeal, but told TfL to refund it. Furthermore it was SWT that pf'd you not TfL. SWT did everything fine, TfL dont.
    Originally posted by ticketcollector
    I think the title says it all, you can't hide fella
  • JJJulian
    Re: Wrong story to train inspector
    On another SWT incident; recently I was travelling from Claygate to Teddington at 6.30am. I got on the train without a ticket as I was seconds from missing my train. There are only 2 per hour so could not afford to miss it. When I changed at Wimbledon, I had to switch platforms. It was while switching platforms that I was stopped by SWT employees asking people for their tickets. It was here that I said I had put my ticket in the train bin and was about to use the underground district line. I tried to get out of this situation as quickly as possible as I always, bar this occasion buy tickets for the train. I planned on buying one on the train to Teddington. However, after being questioned about where I had purchased my ticket at Claygate and method of payment, I realized that I was probably getting myself into more trouble than it was worth. I had actually lied to the guard. I had NOT put my ticket in the bin, as I never bought a ticket. I subsequently told him the correct story which was that I was about to miss the train and had to jump on at Claygate. The reason I lied was because I was in a situation that I have never been in before. I always pay, and all I wanted to know then was to get out the situation and continue my journey to Teddington, with every intention of purchasing a ticket. He wrote everything in his notepad and asked me to sign it. He gave me a ticket and off I went. He said I would receive a letter in a few weeks with a plan of action.

    Now my question is, shall I get hold of the SWT team and further explain my situation? I can prove I always purchase tickets from South West Trains. It was early and I have never been in a situation like this. I was not thinking straight and in reflection, feel like I may have put myself in a situation. However, I do think telling the truth eventually was the right thing to do.
    • Livingthedream
    • By Livingthedream 27th Sep 10, 10:37 PM
    • 2,530 Posts
    • 3,489 Thanks
    Livingthedream
    Now my question is, shall I get hold of the SWT team and further explain my situation?
    Originally posted by JJJulian
    IMHO, I would wait and see what SWT do, I don't think you will have to wait long, just keep checking your morning post.

    You won't get a court summons, you will get a threatening letter with all the details of the journey and the statement that you provided and an invoice amount to pay (It's not a fine only a court can issue a fine), and another threat to pay it within a certain time frame else it goes up by certain %.

    Again IMHO you were lucky as technically you did 'fare dodge' and also lied to a RPI, chalk this one up to experience, pay the invoice and move on.

    Of course that's if they get back to you, you could be lucky again.
    Last edited by Livingthedream; 28-09-2010 at 9:05 AM.
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    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 28th Sep 10, 9:27 PM
    • 1,520 Posts
    • 633 Thanks
    Stigy
    IMHO, I would wait and see what SWT do, I don't think you will have to wait long, just keep checking your morning post.

    You won't get a court summons, you will get a threatening letter with all the details of the journey and the statement that you provided and an invoice amount to pay (It's not a fine only a court can issue a fine), and another threat to pay it within a certain time frame else it goes up by certain %.

    Again IMHO you were lucky as technically you did 'fare dodge' and also lied to a RPI, chalk this one up to experience, pay the invoice and move on.

    Of course that's if they get back to you, you could be lucky again.
    Originally posted by Livingthedream
    They won't just invoice him, and the letter shouldn't be threatening. It's not a debt recovery letter, it'll merely state the facts of the matter as put in the RPIs report. We don't know if he's lucky yet, as other than being arrested, this is probably about as bad as it can be, lol!
    • Livingthedream
    • By Livingthedream 28th Sep 10, 10:22 PM
    • 2,530 Posts
    • 3,489 Thanks
    Livingthedream
    They won't just invoice him, and the letter shouldn't be threatening. It's not a debt recovery letter, it'll merely state the facts of the matter as put in the RPIs report. We don't know if he's lucky yet, as other than being arrested, this is probably about as bad as it can be, lol!
    Originally posted by Stigy
    Interesting points, just hope the poster gets back to us with an update.

    But having read this thread were yourself and the poster have answered, it sounds if he's in a right panicky state. I still feel that the SWT won't prosecute and will try and get money out of the poster and that the poster will be more than happy to pay up.

    Oh yes, welcome to the forum
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