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Funding a second undergrad degree
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# 1
xFlake
Old 21-04-2008, 12:43 AM
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Default Funding a second undergrad degree

Hi guys.

I'm currently in the second year of an undergrad degree and am considering a second undergrad degree when I finish, so I guess now is the time to start gathering information. With me opting for student support for this degree I am ineligible for student support for a second degree so this is all about funding it.

Now rough calculations suggest I will need approx 9k per academic year to fund myself. That's 3k for fees, 3 for accommodation and 3k for food and other necessities.

Bank loans are a no no and my parents just cannot afford to support me. Basically I'm looking for advice from anyone who has done this themselves, knows someone who has done this or who can simply offer advice.

I'm looking at taking Law with University of Manchester being my preferred location, however depending on bursaries/scholarships I would be willing to consider other universities (of course they have to accept me).

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

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# 2
melancholly
Old 21-04-2008, 12:49 AM
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i guess the question to ask is why you want to do this and what your ultimate aim is after the second degree? is there another way of getting to where you want to be that isn't going to cost the earth?

e.g. if you want to do law, don't bother doing a full undergrad degree, just do a conversion course and see if you can get sponsored by a company to do that.
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowP...rses/p!ecdfeej
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# 3
melancholly
Old 21-04-2008, 12:51 AM
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also - put this date in your diary now:
http://www.studentnet.manchester.ac....fairs/lawfair/
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# 4
Oldernotwiser
Old 21-04-2008, 7:40 AM
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I agree with Melancholly; there's rarely any reason for taking a second undergraduate degree and certainly not for law. Have a chat with your careers department and they'll help you look at your options.
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# 5
Rosie75
Old 21-04-2008, 11:46 PM
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I'd certainly look into the conversion, as others have suggested. The government is planning to remove funding for second undergraduate degrees, which means that the fees you would have to pay for a law degree would be significantly higher than 3k (the 3k is a subsidised rate for home students - you'd be looking at the overseas rate).
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# 6
kr15snw
Old 22-04-2008, 8:44 AM
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I would definately look at other options. A friend on my course is doing a second undergrad degree (completely changed subjects from when she did it first time) and she has found it extremely hard. She works full time (8 hour days, 5 days a week) around her lectures so that she can afford to attend the course. She struggles a lot and wouldnt reccomend it to anyone else.

Another friend from my previous course wanted to continue to the degree, but as he did a degree years ago he couldnt get any help either. So he didnt do it, as there was no way he could afford to support himself.
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# 7
hoppityhop87
Old 23-04-2008, 2:35 PM
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dear smh, i am in the EXACT position as u! althought i am thinkng of aplpying for optometry after studying biomedical engineering. i have chosen this as i can't see any prospects for biomedical engineering. they are expecting me to pay 8k per academic year...i can't afford it..my paretns can't afford to fund me either! any1 have ideas?
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# 8
mark1024
Old 25-04-2008, 3:06 PM
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I have recently heard that Birkbeck and South Bank University in London have decided to hold off increasing fees this year for those with previous degrees.

Unfortunately not relevant for my proposed further study, but might be a last chance for many to escape the huge increases in fees. They should remain relatively low for the duration of the course.

Mark
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# 9
moneybelle
Old 25-04-2008, 11:09 PM
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Shame on the government for stopping so many intelligent people reach their full potential.

We need Richard Branson to invent a discount university now.
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# 10
melancholly
Old 26-04-2008, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneybelle View Post
Shame on the government for stopping so many intelligent people reach their full potential.

We need Richard Branson to invent a discount university now.
well the change in funding does only apply to second undergrad degrees. whilst it isn't ideal, i do think it's fairer to push all the money they have into more access to first degrees (and maybe some more into postgrad funding too - however unlikely that is to happen!).

i don't think there should be any fees at all, but while there are, i can understand this decision.
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# 11
Oldernotwiser
Old 26-04-2008, 1:31 PM
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In the past you could only normally guarantee funding for 3 years. If you dropped out in the first year or wanted to change courses the funding became totally discretionary for any other course you might want to do. I did 2 terms of a course and then left; when I came to apply a couple of years later I was told that if I supported myself for the first year the LEA would then consider (no guarantee) offering me funding for the final 2 years. Although in some ways the current system's tough, in other ways it's easier than it used to be.
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# 12
mark1024
Old 27-04-2008, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melancholly View Post
well the change in funding does only apply to second undergrad degrees. whilst it isn't ideal, i do think it's fairer to push all the money they have into more access to first degrees
Problem is it removes the possibility of re-training later in life, and clearly goes against the government commitment to lifelong learning. This harms undergraduate studies by removing the mix of mature students' experience, especially in the arts and humanities. This irrationality is clear from the fact that foundation degrees are excluded. I can, and indeed have applied for a couple of these on my uccas application this year, as they are excluded from the cuts. So why are they excluded ? In my proposed field of study they are generally offered by further education colleges and community colleges, who are gearing up to offering higher education.
So this part of the push to increase the numbers in higher education is basically widening the scope of the institutions offering such studies. Without wishing to sound too derogatory, a FE college is not a university, and will not offer the same learning experience. A hundred million saved unfortunately does not go a long way to increasing opportunities for school leavers, but conversely does a great deal of harm.

This cut in funding has been brought in so far under the radar and without proper consultation most people are completely ignorant, and may receive a shock when they eventually hear about fees.

Anyway, that is my opinion, but this forum is probably more useful providing information that opinions, and for many people this year brings the bad news that their dreams of re-training have been swept away.
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# 13
nimbo
Old 27-04-2008, 11:33 AM
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but surely if it is retraining that a person wanted, then they can in fact pay to to it part time, or their workplace would fund it???

i'm studying part time with the OU, funding it myself (probably why i still have my student OD), but my workplace does fund it's employees to do all sorts of courses, includind degrees, and masters'...

i have to say that i agree with melancholly, that more money should be ploughed into getting people their first degrees... i also agree that it seems unfair that a government who went to uni with grants not fees changed it for the worse for the rest of us...

maybe the fact that a person only gets to do one degree with help should be pointed out to people before they enroll at uni, as it might make people think before choosing. b(i'm sure cling on is really useful, but probably dosesn't do much for your job prospects...)

and look on the bright side, at least you'd get help in your third year which would ease the burden a bit, as all students are entitled to 3+1 years... (i unfortunately couldn't afford the first 2 years to get to number 3), and so had to settle for second best with the OU. not that i regret it, got some really good marks last year (got a 91!!!!) i nearly wet myself!!!!
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# 14
Oldernotwiser
Old 27-04-2008, 2:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimbo View Post

i also agree that it seems unfair that a government who went to uni with grants not fees changed it for the worse for the rest of us...
But, as I said, there were NO second chances in those days; you got one chance and that was it! Also worth remembering that about 4 times the proportion of the population goes to university nowadays, compared with then and if your parents weren't poor you got NO maintenence support if they didn't keep you. People who complain should wonder whether they might be one of the 3 in 10 people who go to university now who would not have been able to go if they had been born earlier.

Having said that, I do wish that people didn't have to pay fees but then I think that university numbers have been overexpanded which is the subject of another thread.
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# 15
bestpud
Old 27-04-2008, 5:58 PM
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There is lots of mature students who haven't been for the first time yet! Funding should surely be aimed at them before those who are going for the second time?

I don't agree with fees at all tbh, but as we have them, it seems absolutely right that any available funding goes to those who have not had a first chance yet.

I agree the increased fees have been introduced on the quiet but we should be used to that tactic by now!
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# 16
mark1024
Old 28-04-2008, 2:49 PM
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Well a few points were raised;

Firstly part time degrees generally cost the same as full time, and so will increase in cost as well. 35,000 over six years instead of three. This is why Birkbeck college is campaigning against the changes, their degrees being predominantly part time. Also part time does not suit everyone; some of us find it difficult to tackle demanding study late into the evening.

Most employers do not fund degrees. I barely had any paid for training in my last career because I was too busy, and despite good intention, could not afford to be out of the office. Employers are also less likely to fund anything not focussed on their business.

There are many subjects for which the open university does not offer the same facilities as a regular college. No day to day science labs, no art studios, not even daily arguments in the common room.


Who said funding for first time students should not have priority over second timers ? The point here is that there will be absolutely no funding for the later. I guess it depends whether you value life long learning, and how you measure the benefit to society, through better work prospects as well as general education. I am talking about education, which is not the same thing as training.

At the end of the day people will differ in opinion about worthwhile funding, but for those seeking a second degree the key point is to get your skates on, as things are changing.
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# 17
jay11
Old 29-04-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1024 View Post
Well a few points were raised;

Firstly part time degrees generally cost the same as full time, and so will increase in cost as well. 35,000 over six years instead of three. This is why Birkbeck college is campaigning against the changes, their degrees being predominantly part time. Also part time does not suit everyone; some of us find it difficult to tackle demanding study late into the evening.

Most employers do not fund degrees. I barely had any paid for training in my last career because I was too busy, and despite good intention, could not afford to be out of the office. Employers are also less likely to fund anything not focussed on their business.

There are many subjects for which the open university does not offer the same facilities as a regular college. No day to day science labs, no art studios, not even daily arguments in the common room.


Who said funding for first time students should not have priority over second timers ? The point here is that there will be absolutely no funding for the later. I guess it depends whether you value life long learning, and how you measure the benefit to society, through better work prospects as well as general education. I am talking about education, which is not the same thing as training.

At the end of the day people will differ in opinion about worthwhile funding, but for those seeking a second degree the key point is to get your skates on, as things are changing.
That's not completley true, we do have quite generous funding for vocations where there's a shortage, such as some NHS and teaching posts. Presumably many other career changes will ultimately lead to increased income for the student. Therefore why shouldn't they pay extra for it if it allows others a first chance.

As for not being cut out to study late into the evenings, surely it depends how much people want the qualification. I'm a mature student with family, etc, doing a first degree and working, there was no way whatsoever for me to go to uni when I was young (which would have been free), due to family circumstances. However, I want this so much that I study late evenings AND early mornings. It's my choice and my passion, so I'll work as hard as necessary, tired or not.

Nb. I also don't agree with funding per se, but I do believe in fairness and if that's what it takes...
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# 18
Oldernotwiser
Old 29-04-2008, 8:18 PM
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Worth considering as well; the government doesn't fund changing careers at a less academic level either. If you have, say, an NVQ2 in Hairdressing you won't get funded 10 years later if you want to do an NVQ2 in plumbing. Same thing applies at level 3. You may not like it but at least it's consistent.
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# 19
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Old 29-04-2008, 8:32 PM
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That's true, I remember that about A-levels, and seem to remember that you can't get funding for a qualification at a lower level than others you have, too. It feels unfair if you're in that position, but at least it's cheaper here than in some other countries. As funding isn't unlimited, it does seem fairest if everyone gets one chance at each level, it's the change that's hard and unexpected for those who possibly didn't put much thought into choosing a first degree. Life's never fair. You Ok oldernotwiser?
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# 20
Oldernotwiser
Old 29-04-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
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You Ok oldernotwiser?
Fine thanks, and yourself?
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