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  • PasturesNew
    • #2
    • 26th Feb 08, 1:25 AM
    • #2
    • 26th Feb 08, 1:25 AM
    Try:
    http://www.landlordzone.co.uk
    http://www.singingpig.co.uk

    A tenancy agreement is something you should consider paying a bit for though. It's your security. If you want a bad tenant out you've just got your Agreement and the law. And many bad tenants really know their stuff.
  • tbs624
    • #3
    • 26th Feb 08, 8:07 AM
    • #3
    • 26th Feb 08, 8:07 AM
    You could join one of the Landlords' Associations - you'll get a discount on your buildings insurance, access to advice from other Landlords via the forums, plus access to documents such as tenancy agreements, S21 notices, inventory preparation etc. They are also a valuable source of help if things go wrong.

    See: http://www.rla.org.uk/ or http://www.nfrl.co.uk/ and before you DIY have a look here http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf
  • barnaby-bear
    • #4
    • 26th Feb 08, 8:41 AM
    • #4
    • 26th Feb 08, 8:41 AM
    Hi, could any one give me a web address from which I could down load a free Tenancy Agreement document or does any one know where I could obtain a free Tenancy Agreement document.

    Thanks

    Bigted
    Originally posted by Bigted
    so you are relying on your legal protection for a 200k asset on something you got free off an internet chat room.... smart business move....

    just make sure you also ask for advice:
    -free accountancy to handle the tax
    -legal advice on your obligations regarding smoke alarms, gas safety certificates, insurances, fire doors
    - how to serve notice, get it a day wrong and it isn't legal
    - how to evict muppet tenants
    - how to credit check

    this is a business - basing it on a document you got for free is a bit "interesting"

    100 to join a professional landlord's association with legal helpline could turn out to be the best 100 you ever spend
  • clutton
    • #5
    • 27th Feb 08, 1:16 AM
    • #5
    • 27th Feb 08, 1:16 AM
    no one EVER knows how good or bad their tenancy agreement is - until they are in court - if you have got one from a "dubious" source - you may have A VERY expensive mistake on your hands - if you get one from National landlords association or another professional body, then at least you stand a good chance of getting it right

    an AST is there to protect the interests of BOTH parties ..... work it out .....
  • tbs624
    • #6
    • 27th Aug 08, 8:35 PM
    • #6
    • 27th Aug 08, 8:35 PM
    .......I like websites like this MoneySaving Expert and LandlordExpert as they genuinely seem to be helping people rather than taking advantage of them.
    Originally posted by Dastis
    although IMO LLExpert does like to blast you with constant advertising and only offers support to LLs and property investors rather than to *anyone* who has a query.

    Any connection to LLE at all Dastis?

    It just seems a bit odd replying to a 6 month old query - you know, a bit of forum "grave digging " followed by what sounds a bit....well.....adverty?

    I did wonder if you'd get a few tenants signing up though when I read this bit.....
    .... Even when I needed to evict a landlord I found all the information and documents I needed.
    Originally posted by Dastis
    (my underlining)

    There you go folks, the solution to those pesky LLs who like to let themselves in to your rented home now and again....................
    Last edited by tbs624; 27-08-2008 at 8:37 PM.
  • KnottyB
    • #7
    • 22nd Sep 08, 1:12 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Sep 08, 1:12 PM
    Thanks for this topic, renting off relatives and just needed a quick/cost effective way to sort it out. (As we trust them and they trust us).
  • 3plus1
    • #8
    • 2nd Oct 08, 12:34 AM
    • #8
    • 2nd Oct 08, 12:34 AM
    We're tenants in Scotland and downloaded one from the Edinburgh council website: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Housing/Private_tenants_and_home_owners/CEC_letwise

    If you're in England, you may strike lucky with your local council website. Our landlord didn't want to organise a formal written tenancy agreement, so we offered to do it for him.
  • tbs624
    • #9
    • 2nd Oct 08, 12:53 AM
    • #9
    • 2nd Oct 08, 12:53 AM
    Sorry I meant tenants! doh. Just found this forum when i was looking for an AST and thought my finding .. might help others.

    No links to any website, just really like free ones with detailed information that help those that cant afford to pay for it or might only need a bit advice here and there.
    Originally posted by Dastis
    Sorry, but anyone who can't afford to pay for the legal documentation necessary to let out property should not even think about becoming a LL. What we are talking about here is a sum of 50-75 quid to protect an asset worth thousands £ ( Become a member of a LL association for around 75 quid & you get kept up to date with legislation, have access to legal support and in the case of the RLA,can buy a Plain English Campaign tenancy agreement for a fiver IIRC.)

    If the potential LL doesn't have even that low level of funding then how is s/he going to cope with tenancy voids, boiler breakdowns, repairs contingency fund.......
  • shmo87
    hi, I'm sub-letting and am wondering if anyone knows of a tenancy agreement for just the rooms and where can I get one from? Thanks.
    Impartial view on electrical deals!
  • SteveB81
    A good one is www.lettingexpert.com there are free agreements on there plus some tips
  • tbs624
    A good one is xxxxxxxxxx there are free agreements on there plus some tips
    Originally posted by SteveB81
    Each time someone on here says "here's a good free agreement " we get another good example of exactly why the free ones should not be used. IMO there are several clauses in there that are very poorly worded, for example:
    3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;
    A tenant can only be held responsible for blockages than be shown to have been caused by his/her actions or omissions - this clause looks to me like a LL seeking to dump some of his S11 LL&T A obligations
    3.4.6 Clean all the windows of the Premises both inside and outside at least once in every two calendar months of the Term and at the end of the Term;

    This one is way too prescriptive: LL cannot tell a T how often to clean their windows, and there is dissent over whether a T can be obliged to clean the outside. And of course, if the windows are not shiny and bright at the start, and properly recorded as being so, the LL is out of luck.

    Get a proper Tenancy Agreement -one that safeguards you and your property. This is just one of things that a LL association can help you with.If you are too tight to pay out for something as basic as this, stick with your day job and leave lettings to those who know what they are doing.

    The continued use of poorly worded agreements, the terms of which often seek to place the T at a distinct disadvantage, will IMO eventually lead to one Govt regulated type of agreement that all LLs have to use with no alterations.
    Last edited by tbs624; 04-10-2008 at 9:33 AM.
  • SteveB81
    Each time someone on here says "here's a good free agreement " we get another good example of exactly why the free ones should not be used. IMO there are several clauses in there that are very poorly worded, for example:
    3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;
    A tenant can only be held responsible for blockages than be shown to have been caused by his/her actions or omissions - this clause looks to me like a LL seeking to dump some of his S11 LL&T A obligations
    3.4.6 Clean all the windows of the Premises both inside and outside at least once in every two calendar months of the Term and at the end of the Term;
    This one is way too prescriptive: LL cannot tell a T how often to clean their windows, and there is dissent over whether a T can be obliged to clean the outside. And of course, if the windows are not shiny and bright at the start, and properly recorded as being so, the LL is out of luck.

    Get a proper Tenancy Agreement -one that safeguards you and your property. This is just one of things that a LL association can help you with.If you are too tight to pay out for something as basic as this, stick with your day job and leave lettings to those who know what they are doing.

    The continued use of poorly worded agreements, the terms of which often seek to place the T at a distinct disadvantage, will IMO eventually lead to one Govt regulated type of agreement that all LLs have to use with no alterations.
    Originally posted by tbs624
    I'm not a landlord, but I am a tenant - the terms listed are pretty standard I'd say - its simply saying keep a property clean - why would a landlord not want that?

    As for drains etc - I'd expect to be charged for pouring fat etc down a drain and blocking it or not helping to maintain the property I live in by highlighting issues to my landlord.

    But as with all free tenancy agreements - surely, if as a landlord you don't agree with something, you alter it?

    The problem is I see is that too many people think that just because you pay tens or hundreds of pounds for something it's better. FREE usually means that it is not customised to one specific person - you alter it to customise it to your own needs. If you PAY you can ask for these to be changed for you as the person quoted above obvioulsy would. Its swings and roundabouts though.
    Last edited by SteveB81; 05-10-2008 at 3:13 PM.
  • tbs624
    I'm not a landlord, but I am a tenant - the terms listed are pretty standard I'd say - its simply saying keep a property clean - why would a landlord not want that?
    Originally posted by SteveB81
    Maybe I need to clarify my post above, as you have perhaps misunderstood what I was saying.


    The LL *would* of course want that - the point is is that for* the tenant* the terms that I mentioned from that agreement that you linked to are not "simply saying keep a property clean" - they are overly prescriptive and/or downright wrong.

    Many terms that LLs put into their tenancy agreements will not stand up in court, precisely because some LLs persist in using freebie TAs or cobbling together one of their own, rather than getting one which is properly worded and which complies with current legislation and regulations.

    As for drains etc - I'd expect to be charged for pouring fat etc down a drain and blocking it or not helping to maintain the property I live in by highlighting issues to my landlord.
    Originally posted by SteveB81

    When I said:
    A tenant can only be held responsible for blockages than be shown to have been caused by his/her actions or omissions - this clause looks to me like a LL seeking to dump some of his S11 LL&T A obligations
    Originally posted by tbs624
    this was because the LL has very specific repair and maintenance obligations set out under Statute, ie the LL and T Act 1985, S11.

    These obligations covers drains etc and the LL cannot and must not seek to pass those responsibilities back to the T.

    The only exception to these obligations is, as I said before, when a T’s own act or omission can be shown to have caused the blockage or repair issue , ie by pouring fat down a drain as you describe above.

    The free agreement mentions the LLs obligations but then wrongly goes onto state:

    It is the Tenant’s obligation to….

    3.4.3 Keep cleansed and free from obstruction all gutters, down pipes, drains, sanitary apparatus, water and waste pipes;”
    so I think you have misunderstood the issue.
    But as with all free tenancy agreements - surely, if as a landlord you don't agree with something, you alter it?
    Originally posted by SteveB81
    No, you get a decent contract drawn up by someone who knows what they are doing from the start - not only does the LL run the risk of not fully protecting himself and/or his own property if s/he doesn’t , s/he can end up trying to impose obligations on the Tenant that are contrary to the law.

    The problem is I see is that too many people think that just because you pay tens or hundreds of pounds for something it's better. FREE usually means that it is not customised to one specific person - you alter it to customise it to your own needs.
    Originally posted by SteveB81
    A decent TA does not cost tens of hundreds of pounds - letting property should be done professionally or not at all. As with any type of legal contrac,t or a will for example, trying to unravel the resultant legal problems that are often created by an amateur or poorly worded tenancy agreement will cost a newbie LL more than getting it done properly in the first place.

    As you are a tenant,surely you want to be signed up to an agreement that is easily understood, complies properly with the law and doesn't seek to place you at a disadvantage? That type of TA can be found via the LL associations, solicitor Tessa Shepperson's LandlordLaw site or a good local solicitor with LL&T experience. (both the RLA and the Landlordlaw sites offer agreements that are approved by the Plain English Campaign, which makes things even more straightforward for both parties).
    Last edited by tbs624; 05-10-2008 at 8:14 PM.
  • Ian Griffiths Halifax
    This entire thread remids me of the 'can you recommend a free mortgage broker' threads. You get what you pay for.
    I am a Mortgage Consultant and don't like to be told what I can and can't put in a signature so long as it's legal and truthful.
  • Gorgeous George
    Try:
    http://www.landlordzone.co.uk
    http://www.singingpig.co.uk

    A tenancy agreement is something you should consider paying a bit for though. It's your security. If you want a bad tenant out you've just got your Agreement and the law. And many bad tenants really know their stuff.
    Originally posted by PasturesNew
    Oh yes, of course. Paying for something makes it better.

    Getting the right agreement is more important. The right one can be free. Maybe we should build a perfect tenancy agreement on here. One that suits the LL and the Tenant.

    Remind me, what is the name of this website?

    GG
    There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those that don't.
  • TJ27
    I offer free advice regarding certain aspects of renting, mainly means of escape from fire. That's part of what my job involves.

    I sometimes come across properties which have been upgraded under the recommendations of paid consultants which is completely inadequate and just wrong.

    Free advice is often better than that which you pay for.
  • Ian Griffiths Halifax
    I offer free advice regarding certain aspects of renting, mainly means of escape from fire. That's part of what my job involves.

    I sometimes come across properties which have been upgraded under the recommendations of paid consultants which is completely inadequate and just wrong.

    Free advice is often better than that which you pay for.
    Originally posted by TJ27
    No further comment
    I am a Mortgage Consultant and don't like to be told what I can and can't put in a signature so long as it's legal and truthful.
  • TJ27
    The point I'm trying to make is that just because advice might be free, it doesn't mean it's worthless. Indeed it might be worth far more than paid for advice.

    I've been to houses where a landlord has done lots of work under the advice of paid pros, and I've then told him to rip it out and do it again properly. If he'd asked for my free advice in the first place not only would he have saved his fee for the advice, he would have saved the cost of doing the work twice. Paying for advice turned out to be far more expensive than he thought.

    It doesn't always work that way of course but then clearly neither does, "you get what you pay for."
  • tbs624
    Oh yes, of course. Paying for something makes it better.
    Originally posted by Gorgeous George
    No, of course "paying for something" does not, per se, mean that something is better but getting it done properly always does - unfortunately, that generally means paying someone else for the work behind it.

    LLs need to get their heads around this one - it is highly likely that it will soon be a regulatory requirement that all LLs are signed up to a bonafide LL association. Once you have paid your (tax deductable) Association membership fee, the charge for a decent AST agreement is minimal - less than the cost of a bottle of wine.

    Getting the right agreement is more important. The right one can be free.
    Originally posted by Gorgeous George
    ..but unfortunately the one linked to here is questionable , as are the others that we see promoted from time to time via this board. Another one recently had the immortal line "the LL shall not be liable for any liabilities" IIRC And how do people know that the free one that they've got is "right" ? The answer is that they generally don't until it needs to be relied on in the event of a dispute by which time it's too late: bear in mind also that a Judge is likely to have particular views on a LL whose contracts seek to take away a tenant's legal rights or to relieve the LL of his own legal obligations.

    Maybe we should build a perfect tenancy agreement on here. One that suits the LL and the Tenant.
    Originally posted by Gorgeous George
    How about we don't - legal agreements are best drawn up by those who are legal professionals. We see enough posts on here, from both LLs and Ts, that show that there is widespread ignorance of the very basic tenets of LL & T law - let's not add to that potent mix.

    Remind me, what is the name of this website?

    GG
    Originally posted by Gorgeous George
    GG, you are not normally this slow - here's the money saving bit for you:
    ......As with any type of legal contrac,t or a will for example, trying to unravel the resultant legal problems that are often created by an amateur or poorly worded tenancy agreement will cost a newbie LL more than getting it done properly in the first place.
    Originally posted by tbs624
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