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  • FIRST POST
    • lynn44
    • By lynn44 18th Feb 08, 11:23 AM
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    lynn44
    Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer
    • #1
    • 18th Feb 08, 11:23 AM
    Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer 18th Feb 08 at 11:23 AM
    Can I have some views please on Cesar why do pepole think he's cruel ?
    I have watched and cant see what he is doing wrong ?
    I enjoy the program and also watch Dog Borstal which have different training methods ?

    Thank You
    I would love to be a Travel Agent
Page 1
  • ~cleo~
    • #2
    • 18th Feb 08, 2:36 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Feb 08, 2:36 PM
    i think he uses a few adverse methods as apposed to positive training methods - i dont like his methods tho, i do like Dog Borstal and Its Me Or The Dog

    theres quite a good article here http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin
    :rolleyes: Democracy is a process by which the people are free to choose the man who will get the blame.
  • MoneySavingStudent
    • #3
    • 18th Feb 08, 2:56 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Feb 08, 2:56 PM
    I have to say, i would use any of the methods on tv on your own dog. Id get advise from a specially trained dog trainer. We did and we use the water method. So when our doggie is naughty she gets a little bit of water sprayed on her back and she soon calms down.

    I do enjoy dog borstal and only just started watching it and ive seen them use the water method a couple of times. So i suppose its what works best with your doggie. I dont find the methods on dog borstal cruel. I thinks its a great idea to be all happy when the dog has done something right and be all low when the dog does something wrong.
    I'm getting married in August 2015
    • ameliarate
    • By ameliarate 18th Feb 08, 3:01 PM
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    ameliarate
    • #4
    • 18th Feb 08, 3:01 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Feb 08, 3:01 PM
    I don't find Cesar Millan's methods to be cruel, I really enjoy the programme.I think sometimes people don't like it when he forces a dog to confront a fear, such as the toaster popping up episode. I wish I could get him to come and see my dog who is scared of just about everything (carrier bags, umberellas, cushions, newspapers.............) She is also not to be trusted around other dogs as she attacks (out of fear).
    • pboae
    • By pboae 18th Feb 08, 7:17 PM
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    • #5
    • 18th Feb 08, 7:17 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Feb 08, 7:17 PM
    Cesar Milan doesn't force them to confront their fears, he just frightens them more than then thing they are scared of.

    To give you a human example. I am scared of spiders. When I see a spider I react to it, I might scream or try to get away from it. To stop me doing this, you force me to confront a spider. Everytime I react you jab me in the neck, yank me on a collar, or even give me an electric shock. Eventually I will stop reacting to the spider, because I know that if I do react you will hurt me.

    Next time I saw a spider when you were there, I would probably stay extremely still and quiet. Somebody else seeing that might congratulate on on how well you had done. I am still and quiet, therefore I am calm and no longer scared. But actually I would still be absolutely terrified, and my stillness would be a fear of reacting, not a lack of fear. In dogs that is called 'shutting down' and you see it all the time on CM's show.

    Then you need to consider the spider's point of view. Before I was shouting, waving my arms arouns, and trying to get away from the spider. Spiders usually take the hint and get away from me as quickly as they can. It's still a hysterical over reaction on my part, but in the end no harm is done.

    Now I don't react anymore. The spider is there, it's getting nearer, I'm scared to move, scared to shout, eventually the spider reaches me. What happens then? Well, it depends a lot on the individual. In my case I'd probably be sick and pass out (which has happened in the past when I was 'trapped' with a spider). Or if I was a bit braver I'd probably kill it, especially if it was something I had a reason to be scared of (e.g. a black widow) rather than just an irrational fear.

    With the above in mind, these are the reasons I dislike CM

    1) his training methods involve hurting the dog. I find this completely unacceptable.
    2) his training methods are potentially dangerous to the dog (he has been sued for the physical damage done to dogs at his centre).
    3) his training methods are dangerous to the trainers
    4) his training methods create dogs that are walking time bombs. A dog that has been trained not show fear is an accident waiting to happen. If something scared them and they are not allowed to run away, not allowed to scare it off, not allowed to look to their owner for protection, then they only option they have left is to kill it. When the dog finally snaps and goes for someone or another dog the owners are completely shocked, because they thought the dog had been 'cured'.

    There are far kinder, more effective and less potentially dangerous training methods available. Why pick the one that's bad for the dog and bad for the owner?

    You might also be interested in Ian Dunbar's thoughts on it
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

    Also, watch a CM showith the sound turned off. Watch the dog's body language, it's signs of stress (averting gaze, muzzle licking, ears flat, etc) and how hard he jabs them, the sly kicks he gives them. When you ignore the nonsense he waffles over the top it's a very different show.
    When I had my loft converted back into a loft, the neighbours came around and scoffed, and called me retro.
  • heccus
    • #6
    • 18th Feb 08, 11:02 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Feb 08, 11:02 PM
    I have watched plenty of Cesar Milan programmes and i have never seem him use violence towards a dog. I have never seen a dog 'frightened' by him.
    Exercise, discipline and affection sound like good common sense to me - and not just for dogs!
    • tiamai_d
    • By tiamai_d 18th Feb 08, 11:46 PM
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    tiamai_d
    • #7
    • 18th Feb 08, 11:46 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Feb 08, 11:46 PM
    I have never seen CM use a shock collar, which I personally believe is cruel.

    A lot of his methods are different but seem to work. And I see no difference between what he does and what happens on dog borstal, how is shaking a can of dried peas different to CM's 'Shh!' ?? I have also seen Dog Borstal forcing dog's to 'confront their fears' in similar ways to CM.

    The only criticism I have is to the kicks, fine if as he says they are only touches, but it's a TV programme so we don't know.

    And I have to say I agree with the 'Pack leader thing'. I am my dogs leader, he will obey me, he will do as I tell him. Exactly the same as when I am on my horse, I lead her to the left and she will go to the left, when I am in the stable she will behave, she will let me touch her feet whether she likes it or not. And I fend that horses and dogs can both pick up on what you want by the simplest body language. I love them but they will do as I say. Oh and, you would never get a horse to come in from a field on a sunny day unless you did have your mind fully set on it coming in. If you went in 'asking' it would play a nice game of 'catch me if you can'.

    As with almost everything else it's a case of do what you feel is right for you and your dog.
    • pboae
    • By pboae 19th Feb 08, 12:54 AM
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    pboae
    • #8
    • 19th Feb 08, 12:54 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Feb 08, 12:54 AM
    heccus, I can't imagine what shows you've been watching then. That is pretty much the only techinque CM has. Here's a a random youtube link for you. Watch it WITHOUT the sound first.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwFeSlsjFHA

    He holds the dog off the ground by a choke collar, and pins her down by her neck. Watch it closely and you will see she isn't jumping up (which is how many people see it initially) he is hauling her up by the choker around her neck. At the very least she is going to have a bruised neck and throat after this, at worse he could break her neck.

    When he pins her, don't be under any illusion as to how hard he is pressing to keep her down either. He makes it look like it's barely a touch, but you can see him press his whole weight on her. By the time she's still her eyes are rolling and she's frothing, both indicators of severe stress.

    Yes it's true that other dogs do do this (roll a dog and pin it on it's back) but only if they intend to kill it. So it's like holding a gun to a person's head if they don't do as they are told.

    On top of all that, the dog wasn't even being aggressive in the first place, she's showing frustration, but also showing signs that she wants to greet the other dog, not kill it. What she needs is the chance to learn some meet and greet manners, not to be yanked around and pinned to the floor.

    He also set the situation up by having the other dog walk straight up head on. He could have avoided that and gone straight into parallel walking, starting at a distance and then closing the gap. But then he wouldn't have had a chance to manhandle the dog, and that would have made for a boring TV show.

    It's a pity it finishes when it does as well. I'd like to have seen more of the walking afterwards. As always 'Daddy' is being very submissive, avoiding eye contact with the other dog, ears back, etc. All CMs talk about Daddy being a dominant dog is BS, everything about his posture and body language says appeasement.

    But say you did decide to follow this training route with this dog, it would mean the owner keeping up this regime. Aside from the obvious risk that an owner less experienced than CM is likely to end up bitten if they roll a dog like that. All the dog is learning is not to react. In the meantime, everytime it sees another dog something nasty happens to it (it gets pinned to the ground). She now has a good reason to start being scared of dogs, and will quickly move from frustration at not being able to interact appropriately, to fear aggression. Which is a much harder problem to work on.

    tiamai_d: I don't agree with many of the techniques used on dog borstal either, for the same reasons as I don't agree with CMs. Rattle bottles can work, but they can also make things much much worse. Why risk it, when you can get the same results from say, clicker training, without the risk? I also know several trainers who have been left to pick up the pieces of dogs who were left in a worse state by dog borstal than when they started. Of course you won't see that on television.

    The pack leader and dominance stuff was discredited long ago. The original science it was based on was so flawed that the theories derived from it were nonsense. Even some of it's greatest supporters (e.g. John Fisher) have since done a u-turn on it.

    I am not my dog's leader, I do not dominate him in anyway. I have trained him to be obedient with positive training. Everything I do goes against the rules of pack theory, yet he still does as I ask. He will let me do things he dislikes, even let me hurt him (e.g. when he has sore ears that need cleaning). If pack theory were correct, that shouldn't be possible.

    So in one way I would agree with doing whatever works for your dog, because for most dogs it doesn't matter what approach you follow. As long as you are consistent and clear about what you want from them, they will learn, and they will behave as you ask.

    On the other hand I disagree with that approach, because it allows people to continue to abuse dogs and call it 'training'. I also disagree with it because it doesn't address what happens if it doesn't work. With positive training the worst that will happen is that the dog either doesn't learn or learns something irrelevant. Which is the owner's cue that they need to make their instructions clearer.

    With punishment based training when things go wrong they can go very wrong indeed, and there's a good chance someone one (or another dog) will end up bitten as a result. And if that training involves hurting a dog or terrifying them into submission, then as far as I am concerned that's abuse not training.
    Last edited by pboae; 19-02-2008 at 12:58 AM.
    When I had my loft converted back into a loft, the neighbours came around and scoffed, and called me retro.
    • sarah*a
    • By sarah*a 19th Feb 08, 12:31 PM
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    sarah*a
    • #9
    • 19th Feb 08, 12:31 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Feb 08, 12:31 PM
    When he pins her, don't be under any illusion as to how hard he is pressing to keep her down either. He makes it look like it's barely a touch, but you can see him press his whole weight on her. By the time she's still her eyes are rolling and she's frothing, both indicators of severe stress.

    Yes it's true that other dogs do do this (roll a dog and pin it on it's back) but only if they intend to kill it.
    Originally posted by pboae
    Is this right? One of my dogs does this to the other - rolls him over and pins him for a few seconds - but only when he's being a PITA and won't leave her alone. She lets him straight up again, puts her paw on his head ( we says she pats him to say 'there there, no hard feelings ) and then he toddles off and she can go back to sleep/chew her bone etc etc.

    Not a CM fan myself either - his 'illusion' collars speak volumes
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it can not be conquered by it" Ayn Rand
    • supermezzo
    • By supermezzo 19th Feb 08, 7:13 PM
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    supermezzo
    That made me cry actually...poor dog.
    It aint over til I've done singing....
    • MrsTinks
    • By MrsTinks 19th Feb 08, 10:22 PM
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    MrsTinks
    Sorry but I don't think CM is cruel in the least little bit - and I've spent a lot of time working with rescues.
    What IS cruel in my view is dogs dressed in pink frills, carried in glorified handbags and never walked. What is irresponcible is people who let their dogs be incharge of them and their property because this will end in tears and very likely a bite!
    The only episode I have seen him use an electronic collar for was a VERY extreem case - and it was tested on not only CM but also the dogs owner to demonstrate the intensity of the collar. I thinkthe owner was shocked that ti was nothing more than a vibrating sense, he thought it would be a full out ZZAP.
    The dog in question had what I can only call a tyre fetish... and had already been run over once loosing one eye. It carried on chasing tyres and this was a potential lifethreatening situation. It took him 2 welltimes buzzes and the dog decided it didn't like tyres no more... I think that's more than justified the use of the collar?
    Does he scare the dogs? Haven't yet seen an episode where he has and I think I've seen most of them. Does leader of the pack theories work?
    They do for me - but then I guess I believed they could work and therefor they do. I've walked my dog who's not very canine friendly (but better) in a field where we met 2 collies loose with no sight of owners - she hates these 2 with a passion! - I simply made her lie down and then confronted the dogs and basically didn't accept disruptive behaviour from them. I ended up walking all 3 dogs through the field in a calm pack behind me with everyone getting on famously... Never had to touch ANY of the dogs to acchieve it either.
    Remember as he says it's not dog TRAINING it's dog rehabilitation - this isn't teqniques for training your dog, it's for dealing with problems, and 99% of the time they are caused by humans.
    Should his methods be applied if you are unsure? I'd say no - because you are trying to say one thing and you're projecting something entirely different, nightmare for your hound!
    Dog Borstal... I've met 2 of the trainers that have been on the series and I think they do a grand job with some of the dogs. Some of them though are redline cases which cannot be corrected in a week and often certainly not with the present owners!

    And yes dogs will place their jaws round other dogs throats when the dogs are on their back - it's a dominance thing. Think of it as a friendly way of saying "I'm boss!"and the submissive dog saying "yeah no worries boss - i'm no threat to you!"

    Should training ANY potentially dangerous dog be undertaken by Joe Bloggs? NO!!!! Categorically not! Pick a training method you feel you can handle and cope with and find a trainer that uses that method and you feel you can learn from. If you don't know what you're doing get someone in who does - Dog training programs on TV are just that... Entertainment. Yes I agree with CMs methods but they do also clearly state that you shouldn't do pretty much any of it without a professional dog trainer...
    DFW Nerd #025
    • MrsTinks
    • By MrsTinks 19th Feb 08, 10:32 PM
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    MrsTinks
    Is this right? One of my dogs does this to the other - rolls him over and pins him for a few seconds - but only when he's being a PITA and won't leave her alone. She lets him straight up again, puts her paw on his head ( we says she pats him to say 'there there, no hard feelings ) and then he toddles off and she can go back to sleep/chew her bone etc etc.

    Not a CM fan myself either - his 'illusion' collars speak volumes
    Originally posted by sarah*a
    Actually placing a paw on any part of the dog especially the head is a sign of dominace... She's just told him what behaviour she disagrees with and then reinforced the fact SHE is in charge

    As for his illusion collar then if it was available here I'd recommend them. They are a much better alternative to what people buy as it is! Spike collars are my personal pet hate very closely followed by full choke chains - not because they are "cruel" but because they are cruel IF used incorrectly which nearly all of them are.
    Personally I think half check collars are a good alternative IF correctly fitted, but people forget that they still have to teach the dog manners and how to walk - that usually results in the dog half strangling itself by pulling like a freight train and tightening the choke hold...

    Anyway... I'll walk away from my hobby horse now or I'll go on all night
    DFW Nerd #025
    • tiamai_d
    • By tiamai_d 19th Feb 08, 11:38 PM
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    tiamai_d
    I have used the basis of a few of his techniques (but then again I have been doing it since I was little before I had even heard of CM, was just the way I had been tought to interact with dogs) with my own dog, for example, walking. He walks to heel well after discovering that pulling ahead gets him a tug from the lead. I have never had to use halti collars or anything else except a collar and lead. After a short walk like this I know that I can let him have his run and he will come back when called, no matter if his bestest bud from next door turns up. If we go straight to the run without the walk on lead part, he will ignore me for his bestest bud, no matter how often we practice 'praise and reward'. On that one CM seems to have got it right. Though when on his run, he is expected to come and go as I tell him (he is a collie so responds to come and go very well, and only runs in circles)

    I have never moddy coddled a dog in my life. A dog is a dog, not a baby or a child in my view, another thing I agree with CM about.


    pboae, I am my dogs leader in the same way that I am my children's leader. I don't have to dominate them to do this. I simply believe that what I say, goes. My dog will not jump on the counter, my kids will not climb on the counter, if any of them decided to do it, the same result would occur, a very strong 'No, get down!'. This is my view of the 'Pack Leader Theory. I have set boundaries, and I will deal with behavior that is outwith these boundaries.

    If your dog obeys you, then surely it follows that you are his leader?? If not, why would he obey?

    The Pack Leader thing can be misinterpreted. You do not dominate your dog fully like an over bearing mad lord, you do it quietly, calmly and in a way that you know what you are teaching your dog is the best thing for your dog's health and well being, because running away could end with a road accident. The same way as you teach your children to do as they are told, not because you want them to be mindless zombies, but because too much chocolate makes them sick and staying up too late makes them tired and cranky the next day.

    Also, I'd rather just think my dog into behaving than having an array of halti's, clickers, shake bottles, this thats and the nexts. CM's ideas on dog training have worked for me and Doggy since he was a pup. I have a lovely dog who is great with kids, knows how to walk well and stays in his bed while we are eating, loves his runs, and whos only bad habit is that annoying bark to get the rabbit to look at him.
    Last edited by tiamai_d; 19-02-2008 at 11:44 PM.
    • ameliarate
    • By ameliarate 20th Feb 08, 4:13 PM
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    ameliarate
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwFeSlsjFHA

    I have just watched this and that dog is behaving in a very similar way to the way mine does when she sees another dog and no way is she being friendly. The dog is jumping up, I don't believe he is pulling her because I know how mine behaves in the same situation. He holds the dog down forcefully because it is a strong dog but no way is all his weight pinned onto the dog. Nor do I see him making the dogs meet head to head at any time the meeting was in the same way it would be on an everyday walk.

    I sometime use his method of tapping the back end of my dog with my foot when she is in the early stages of that behaviour and it works. NEVER do I kick her, simply tap gently. If I don't get her attention quickly enough when she sees the other dog she goes into exactly that out of control behaviour.

    Unfortunately I can't afford a dog psychologist nor can I re-socialise her with other dogs because of the risk. She has been like this since she was attacked.
    • DKLS
    • By DKLS 22nd Feb 08, 11:50 AM
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    DKLS

    With the above in mind, these are the reasons I dislike CM

    1) his training methods involve hurting the dog. I find this completely unacceptable.
    2) his training methods are potentially dangerous to the dog (he has been sued for the physical damage done to dogs at his centre).
    3) his training methods are dangerous to the trainers
    4) his training methods create dogs that are walking time bombs. A dog that has been trained not show fear is an accident waiting to happen. If something scared them and they are not allowed to run away, not allowed to scare it off, not allowed to look to their owner for protection, then they only option they have left is to kill it. When the dog finally snaps and goes for someone or another dog the owners are completely shocked, because they thought the dog had been 'cured'.
    Originally posted by pboae
    I have to say what a load of twaddle, hurting dogs is the last thing Cesar does.

    Says it all when you mentioned Ian Dunbar, a very bitter sad man who has some serious jealousy issues with Cesar and his methods.

    The key message of Cesar is that he trains the owner the dog usually responds very quickly and drops undesirable behaviours and obsessive behaviours , in nearly every case the owners are numpties, who havent a clue, and either treat the dog like a child or offer no exercise etc.
  • heccus
    Precisely.
  • rescuedogs
    I would much prefer to watch a trainer that uses positive reinforcement and rewards for dog training, I would not let him near my dogs.
    A dog is for life not just for Christmas.
    How about a rescue dog?
    • pboae
    • By pboae 22nd Feb 08, 10:06 PM
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    pboae
    Presumably the American Humane Association are just jealous as well.
    http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer

    I'd like to say I am surprised or disappointed with how much support he has, but I can't honestly say that. There are too many people who believe everything they see on television. Still, it only needs a few more deaths and serious injuries at the 'Dog Psychology Center' or at the hands of his assistants. Dead dogs don't make for good ratings.

    In the meantime dogs will continue to get kicked, throttled and shocked by the people who are supposed to be caring for them, and that's the bit that really does depress me.
    When I had my loft converted back into a loft, the neighbours came around and scoffed, and called me retro.
  • stringandbrownpaper
    A little excerpt from the above link..

    'Dog Whisperer' Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful
    Denver (September 6, 2006)
    The training tactics featured on Cesar Millan's “Dog Whisperer” program are inhumane, outdated and improper, according to a letter sent yesterday to the National Geographic Channel by American Humane, the oldest national organization protecting children and animals.
    In the letter, American Humane, which works to raise public awareness about responsible pet ownership and reduce the euthanasia of unwanted pets, expressed dismay over the “numerous inhumane training techniques” advocated by Cesar Millan on “Dog Whisperer.”
    Torgerson noted that the safety of a woman and her German shepherd were jeopardized in one episode by the use of an electric shock collar, which forced the tormented dog to redirect its aggression at its owner, biting her arm. “Furthermore, the television audience was never told that Mr. Millan was attempting to modify the dog’s behavior by causing pain with the shock collar,” he said.
    The man is dangerous. Apart from traumatising the dogs he personally has contact with, and creating ticking timebombs in the dogs that he 'trains', he's making Joe Bloggs think that the things he's doing are acceptable. Giving the wrong messages about what is aggressive body language in dogs and generally spreading misinformation that's worse that the shouting and choke chains approach that made good telly some years back. SSSIIIITTTT!!!!!

    Yes, the owners are planks. Of course they are. It wouldn't be good telly otherwise, would it? If they were educated by someone using modern methods, there would be good results. These ones would last..

    He's nearly as good as the idiot in the pet shop that's been selling every person with any kind of a problem those squirty air canisters.
    • DKLS
    • By DKLS 25th Feb 08, 8:04 AM
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    DKLS
    stringandbrownpaper, could you explain your sentence: "creating ticking timebombs" what is the evidence behind this? Are you saying that Daddy is a ticking timebomb?, just waiting to turn back to his pitbull genetics and maul every small child in sight? I know which methods I will use when I get a dog again, and it certainly wont be clicker training or cheese biscuits I prefer an efficient method that works.
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