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Shop Radio License? scammers?
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# 81
DCodd
Old 31-03-2009, 5:31 PM
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And here is my response to their somewhat general comments and a question relating to the Civil Contingencies Act 2004. I have had no reply as yet (4 days and still waitng)
I have also e-mailed the radio stations that we used to listen to at work and informed them that because our boss is not willing to pay this riddiculous licence we are switching off our radios.



Dear Mr S

Thank you for your response, I would however re ask the question as to which part of the Copyright, Design and Patent act you, being the PRS, rely on?

If section 72 does not apply and sections 25-27 require the premisies to be hired for entertainment, I can see nothing applicable within the act. Is there some other legislation you refer to and rely on?

I do not mean to seem pedantic but having been told we need a licence to listen to music at work, as a music buying customer (with three kids and four Ipods in the house it runs into 100's a year) I feel an explantion of the relevant legislation is not too much to ask?

I think you will find that most people see the playing of music on the radio as the main form of "Advertising" for your clients, we hear a record we like and then go and buy it. People will not put up with paying for the "privilege" of lisrening to the promotion of your clients work and then having to pay again to buy it. Having asked around my circle of friends I can confirm that business are switching off in droves! This can only harm your clients, surely?

I would also take this opportunity to ask how this stands up against the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 wich clearly states that Local and National Governments can in part meet their "Duty to inform the Public" via the Local and National radio networks. 7/11 and the Oil refinery disaters both utilised the network to prevent further loss of life and disruption. I have been led to believe that should the public not have free access to this network either or both the Authorities or the organisation that prevents such access could be in breach of this statutory law?

I know I may seem grumpy but I just want to know why I buy music, I pay a TV licence (which also funds BBC Radio) and I'm being told that to listen to the music I have brought and Paid for I need to pay again??

Many thanks

Last edited by DCodd; 31-03-2009 at 5:35 PM.
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# 82
dacouch
Old 01-04-2009, 11:14 PM
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Kwik Fit were asked for 200000 for nearly 600 garages fir 5 plus years, they have ust come to an "arrangment" with the PRS. There are going to be some rich sales people at the PRS and musicians!
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# 83
Intheend
Old 25-04-2009, 3:03 PM
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Default Fair play on both sides!

I agree with both sides of this argument to some extent.. but.......

With radio I have agree with many others, that it is unreasonable to expect businesses (especially small businesses) to pay for these licences (with one exception).

For radio surely the best way to collect revenue for artists is via the radio station, not the end listener - especially so when 1) the radio station is already paying royalties to artists to play the music 2) the end user is listening to adverts in most cases, and 3) many listeners go and purchase new music they have heard on the radio.

Surely the best way to manage this would be to amend the rules so that: radio can be played in businesses without a licence as long as its not in a public area like a shop floor. For customer areas like shop floors then a licence should be purchased - with the price dependant on the size of the business. Artists would not be without benefit for the reasons I mention above if the license requirement was removed from non public work areas.

When it comes to playing music like CDs then yes the argument is harder to make and although one could argue the CD has already been purchased etc.... I think on balance performance licenses for businesses are fair and just. Radio though... most definitely NOT!

Thats my take!
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# 84
weeclick
Old 26-04-2009, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMissEmmylou View Post
just what i was going to say

at the end of the day you are charged for the right to air a performance if you like. to listen to it on ur own is one thing, to use it as a motivational tool for your workers, to amuse customers etc is helping a business profits. So why shouldnt you pay for the right? You would pay a TV licence to play a tv in the office right? Thats more acceptable though because you know of it and have become used to it? Also professional artists dont make anywhere near 1 profit per cd! Flip me, they wish they did. In fact those who just sell their CDs after small gigs etc and are not signed... they are the ones to make the most profit per CD.

This is one of my big bug bears, people who dont like to pay for music or the right to use it to benefit themselves.

oh and by the way 1400 sounds a lot.... but thats only 20 per year per person working. Personally i think thats a cheap (and also effective) method of motivating staff!

Well said! I was a music student and it used to sicken me that I would spend all this time creating music, writing and performing yet people would almost expect the privilage for nothing! As you say musicians barely make anything from cd sells or royalties for that matter and thats why so may tours are held, in order to boost their income!

I think its more that, unless youve researched everything for your business in depth in may come as a surprise for some people. If it helps lift the mood in the work place and boosts your sales then I say its a great tool to have and therefore worth paying for!
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# 85
DCodd
Old 27-04-2009, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weeclick View Post
Well said! I was a music student and it used to sicken me that I would spend all this time creating music, writing and performing yet people would almost expect the privilage for nothing! As you say musicians barely make anything from cd sells or royalties for that matter and thats why so may tours are held, in order to boost their income!

I think its more that, unless youve researched everything for your business in depth in may come as a surprise for some people. If it helps lift the mood in the work place and boosts your sales then I say its a great tool to have and therefore worth paying for!
We already pay for this many times over. My big gripe with this is that we end up paying for music that we do not want to listen to as well as the stuff we like.

This is totally getting out of hand, the radio is the music industry's main source of advertising. Why should we pay to hear a song, then pay to buy that song! If you went to a garage to take a test drive would you expect to pay a fee for trying it and have that fee increased because you had the chance to try other cars in the range? I think not!!

They have been asked for a list of material that they administer (as it is NOT all material being played) and refused to supply and they have been asked to show how they can possibly distribute the funds accurately, again they refused to supply the information.

The PRS are harming the music industry with their unfounded requests for fees. Businesses are switching off in droves, just check out the thread on the Federation of Small Businesses website forum. this includes a musician who registered with PRS and received no royalties despite knowing that his music was being played!!!

The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act DOES NOT say that Businesses are required to pay the licence, unless it is an entertainment premisies or that a fee is charged for entry or that the premises is hired for entertainment.

I have still not have a reply from the PRS and until they justify this they can go and boil their head!!
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# 86
chickmug
Old 27-04-2009, 2:18 PM
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Reminds me of the days I was in new homes and the PRS man came into HO and saw me. He was scruffily dressed and I thought it was someone having a laugh. We had music players in the downstairs of every showhome (80'ish) for which he wanted a chunky sum of money for the rights to play the music. So we stopped playing the music and as someone has said we bought the CDs so thought we could use them but NOT so.
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# 87
LilMissEmmylou
Old 27-04-2009, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCodd View Post
We already pay for this many times over. My big gripe with this is that we end up paying for music that we do not want to listen to as well as the stuff we like.

This is totally getting out of hand, the radio is the music industry's main source of advertising. Why should we pay to hear a song, then pay to buy that song! If you went to a garage to take a test drive would you expect to pay a fee for trying it and have that fee increased because you had the chance to try other cars in the range? I think not!!

They have been asked for a list of material that they administer (as it is NOT all material being played) and refused to supply and they have been asked to show how they can possibly distribute the funds accurately, again they refused to supply the information.

The PRS are harming the music industry with their unfounded requests for fees. Businesses are switching off in droves, just check out the thread on the Federation of Small Businesses website forum. this includes a musician who registered with PRS and received no royalties despite knowing that his music was being played!!!

The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act DOES NOT say that Businesses are required to pay the licence, unless it is an entertainment premisies or that a fee is charged for entry or that the premises is hired for entertainment.

I have still not have a reply from the PRS and until they justify this they can go and boil their head!!
The PRS pay fees by taking sample play lists regularly from radio stations as well as all the set lists that are sent to them etc. So there is your answer. Yes this will miss the people who get their track played once or twice an miss out HOWEVER...

If an artist KNOWS their song has been used, or they play regularly and know they should be getting royalties, then all they have to do is tell the PRS and they WILL get their share. In fact a great company to sign up to, to ensure you get your royalties is scentric music (google them).

And that act may not state that you need to pay for this licence, but the fact is you do. Lots of acts are out dated and saddly it always take a long time to fix them. Unless you think the fact they havent changed the fact english men can kill welsh men on st georges day providing it is with a bow and arrow is a good thing? (im sure thats one of the silly laws) and their is a road in the isle of man you cant walk ducks up either if i recall.

God help us when you start a thread once the ISP's add in their 1 fee to cover any music illigally downloaded while using their service ... cause I bet you will have issue paying that too right?
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# 88
sparkey1
Old 27-04-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by before hollywood View Post
i would use the radio stations on freeview, they are better and the prs can take their license and i will give them a license to shove it up their backside
So you will need a TV License and also a licence from the other organisation that works like the PRS. Sorry cant remember its name, but for a TV up to about 32inch its about 500 per year!
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# 89
DCodd
Old 28-04-2009, 1:02 PM
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[QUOTE=LilMissEmmylou;21063451]
And that act may not state that you need to pay for this licence, but the fact is you do. Lots of acts are out dated and saddly it always take a long time to fix them.



This Act is regularly updated, the last time 2007 I believe. And the FACT is no one actually knows and ANYONE who says differently is talking rubbish as no precident has ever been set although PRS have taken two smallish businesses to court and LOST both cases (See FSB website forum).

This does not change the fact that we are being asked to pay for the advertising of a song whether we want to listen to it or not. We now, along with thousands of others, choose to not listen. We advertise on Radio but do we get money whether people buy our services or not, NO!

Get real. 12.2 Million a year revenue just from businesses in an economic climate that is this dire!!! SHAME ON YOU PRS!!
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# 90
LilMissEmmylou
Old 28-04-2009, 6:19 PM
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yeah shame on them indeed paying artists money - tsk tsk, what IS the world coming to...
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# 91
weeclick
Old 28-04-2009, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCodd View Post
We already pay for this many times over. My big gripe with this is that we end up paying for music that we do not want to listen to as well as the stuff we like.

This is totally getting out of hand, the radio is the music industry's main source of advertising. Why should we pay to hear a song, then pay to buy that song! If you went to a garage to take a test drive would you expect to pay a fee for trying it and have that fee increased because you had the chance to try other cars in the range? I think not!!

They have been asked for a list of material that they administer (as it is NOT all material being played) and refused to supply and they have been asked to show how they can possibly distribute the funds accurately, again they refused to supply the information.

The PRS are harming the music industry with their unfounded requests for fees. Businesses are switching off in droves, just check out the thread on the Federation of Small Businesses website forum. this includes a musician who registered with PRS and received no royalties despite knowing that his music was being played!!!

The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act DOES NOT say that Businesses are required to pay the licence, unless it is an entertainment premisies or that a fee is charged for entry or that the premises is hired for entertainment.

I have still not have a reply from the PRS and until they justify this they can go and boil their head!!
I agree that musicians still dont see the money they should whether you pay the license or not, but I think it isnt relevant whether you like the music or not! My point simply was it lifts the mood in some places regardless of song choices.
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# 92
DCodd
Old 29-04-2009, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMissEmmylou View Post
yeah shame on them indeed paying artists money - tsk tsk, what IS the world coming to...
What you have to realise is that this is the only set of industries (Image and Music copyright) that abuse this Act.

We design and build AC systems and using this take on the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act, we could charge anyone who has benificial use of such systems i.e. you go into a building that uses our ac, Hospital, Banks etc. Would you be happy to pay a charge to enter a supermarket or Bank or Hospital or shop it could go on forever!! We do not do this but we could as could holders of patent and design rights for almost every type of "everyday" things! This could even include your clothes, you only pay to use these things within the domestic environment only go outside in your shoes and technically you have to pay!!!

This is how ridiculous the PRS and Getty's interpretation of the Act is!!!
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# 93
LilMissEmmylou
Old 29-04-2009, 7:34 PM
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OMG ur on Gettys !!!! now too? LOL I think your signature is completely apt and prob less tongue in cheek than one would have originally assumed!

weeclick if ur a musician not getting royalties your entitled to get in touch with http://sentricmusic.com/AboutUs.aspx and they will hook you up
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# 94
DCodd
Old 30-04-2009, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMissEmmylou View Post
OMG ur on Gettys !!!! now too? LOL I think your signature is completely apt and prob less tongue in cheek than one would have originally assumed!
Well I hope you will be happy if PRS or Gettys win a test case ( Gettys has one coming up J A Coles V Corbis & Getty) as if you or anyone else has a Face Book page or Bebo or the like then as far as Getty is concerned you will have to pay them for use of any image that may be used on your site at 40 a go!! and that will include the little Icons on this site as they will have the right to charge for any image that have a copyright and that is all images and the same will apply to PRS.

The movement to stop this is not an attack on these industries but a demand for the unreasonable interpretation of the Act to be stopped! Everyone should be paid what they are due but only what they are due and this Act was NEVER meant to be a charge for listening to the radio!!

The actions of PRS and Getty are damaging these industries! just take a look at the effect that raising taxes on alcohol has had on the revenue collected, a drop in real terms of 18% People will not pay more for things that they pay enough for already!!

And yes I am Old & Grumpy and Old & Grumpy enough to remeber when the TV licence was a guarantee of permission to watch and listen to the Public broadcasts of TV and Radio anywhere, with limited access to TV's we all watched together as neighbours and family and friends! which now PRS,PPL etc would say NOT IF YOU DON'T PAY US AS WELL!!!

Maybe I'm not materialistic enough for this world but pay whats due and only whats due and stop the mis-use of a law that was meant to protect intellectual copyright.:confused:
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# 95
Spartacus_Mills
Old 09-05-2009, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMissEmmylou View Post
OMG ur on Gettys !!!! now too? LOL I think your signature is completely apt and prob less tongue in cheek than one would have originally assumed!

weeclick if ur a musician not getting royalties your entitled to get in touch with http://sentricmusic.com/AboutUs.aspx and they will hook you up
Crikey, this is almost incoherent. Try posting in English.
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# 96
rev_henry
Old 11-05-2009, 12:10 PM
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I work in a small gift shop and these jokers have called up a couple of times. There is a flat above the shop in which, at the time, the owner and his wife lived. So on this occasion, owners wife spoke to them and said that her husband often plays music in the flat quite loud, is that ok? To which the response was, no you must ensure that people in the shop can't hear it. At this point she told them to p!ss off and not to tell her what to do in her own home.
Once they got word of it, the owners had the idea of using a CD of someone they know who sings folk songs on a small scale; doesn't have a record deal or anything, I presume just distributes CDs among friends or whatever. Anyway, they asked these jokers if that was OK, and of course it wasn't. So now we have no music for the time being.

Surely their grounds for demanding a license for commercial music is shakey at best, but for non commercial, small scale independent artists, its just having a laugh.
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# 97
paulwf
Old 11-05-2009, 9:30 PM
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When PRS phone up they base their bill on the number of staff, size of shop and whether the music system has a separate speaker system or is just a small integrated unit etc. If you give them figures at the low end (e.g. just list the number of full time staff not part timers and temps) the bill shouldn't be that high, 2 years ago for a smallish shop the bill for me was under 100.

Whether the system is right or wrong the figure is small change in the grand scheme of business overheads, given how much benefit it gives to customers and staff it really isn't worth refusing to pay it. Staff morale will drop and browsing customers will spend less time in the shop, you've just got to bite your tongue and pay it.
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# 98
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:55 PM
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Staff morale will drop and browsing customers will spend less time in the shop, you've just got to bite your tongue and pay it.
Now THAT depends on your choice of music and the volume at which you play it! Trust me, there are a number of shops I walk into and straight out of, because I really can't stand the racket!
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# 99
tsugi
Old 12-05-2009, 3:00 PM
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Hi all,

While I agree that these things are frustrating, and often can seem like a nonsense - there are shops and companies that use music to get customers in (or in some cases - out!), and while it's very popular to say composers are making one million pounds from album sales - that is very much a minority. I write for commercials and films. The fees are in general pretty poor. I am not complaining at all: it's the going rate, but not in the tens of thousands (or in most cases even the thousands). Also, you don't tend to spend every day writing for another programme, so the fee might be what you get for the next few months. Royalties are there to cover the music being used again and again. Actors get repeat fees, writers get paid for excerpts being used, designers and inventors get a percentage of the sale of their design.

It may not be popular, and it is sometimes ludicrously administered, but it's certainly not people's hard-earned cash lining the pockets of a few millionaires!

I thought I'd add my point to the discussion.

Currently facing bankruptcy (music piracy don't you know!) and chasing the Clydesdale for all I'm worth!
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# 100
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Old 12-05-2009, 4:41 PM
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Hi all,

While I agree that these things are frustrating, and often can seem like a nonsense - there are shops and companies that use music to get customers in (or in some cases - out!), and while it's very popular to say composers are making one million pounds from album sales - that is very much a minority. I write for commercials and films. The fees are in general pretty poor. I am not complaining at all: it's the going rate, but not in the tens of thousands (or in most cases even the thousands). Also, you don't tend to spend every day writing for another programme, so the fee might be what you get for the next few months. Royalties are there to cover the music being used again and again. Actors get repeat fees, writers get paid for excerpts being used, designers and inventors get a percentage of the sale of their design.

It may not be popular, and it is sometimes ludicrously administered, but it's certainly not people's hard-earned cash lining the pockets of a few millionaires!

I thought I'd add my point to the discussion.

Currently facing bankruptcy (music piracy don't you know!) and chasing the Clydesdale for all I'm worth!
And it is people like yourself that the PRS are harming! We all want you to get your hard earned money. What most people on here are complaining about is the fact that the PRS are charging for Listening to the radio which was never meant to be the point of the Act. The PRS have had their money from the radio stations braodcasting the work already (and hopefully passed it on to you and your fellow composers etc.). It is the Double or triple charging that we want stopped.
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