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    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    • 7Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Trevor84
    Elderly parent / selling her house
    • #1
    • 12th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    Elderly parent / selling her house 12th Feb 18 at 11:58 AM
    My mother-in-law in currently in a care home. We have got Power of Attorney and we need to sell her house to pay for her care as her savings won't last long. We would like her to come & live with us but we haven't got the room at present.
    My mother-in-law has always wanted to come & live with us. How could we legally use some of the money from the sale of her house to move into a bigger home so we can look after her and not have to pay care home fees?
Page 2
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 3:29 PM
    • 207 Posts
    • 209 Thanks
    need an answer
    She had a serious stroke, but still has mental capacity
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    What day to day limitations does she have?

    mobility ,speech,co orination

    Assume for example you will be taking on the care would you liken it to that of a newborn baby?

    They can be hard work add to that the fact that your MIL will possibly never improve or develop in the way a baby would progress to being a child and gaining a lesser need of dependence it is unlikely that the day to day life will get any easier

    I understand why you posted a financial query on this thread but cant help but wonder if you asked a question around the practicalities of care on the family threads that you would get a much more definite and different picture than just from the angle of finance.
    Whilst I understand the financial side is very important to you,it represents just a small drop of the whole picture of how day to day life for your family will be if you go down the route you are considering.

    Define "pretty much out of the picture".........
    so do you mean could and would return ?
    Presumably not to help but to inherit!
    Last edited by need an answer; 12-02-2018 at 3:36 PM.
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    • hazyjo
    • By hazyjo 12th Feb 18, 3:31 PM
    • 10,123 Posts
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    hazyjo
    The care that she is getting in the care home is the best that she can have. Why do you think you can do better when you have no experience?
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    My concern too. It's such a hard job.


    Also, elderly parents etc might hint at wanting to live with their offspring, but only when they think they'll be mobile but several years older. If they thought they'd not be able to do anything for themselves, often the last person they'd want doing personal/intimate things for them would be their son/daughter/in-laws - not to mention them putting their lives on hold which they probably wouldn't want either.


    I saw the effect it had on my mum looking after my dad at home for 6 years - especially the last few months of his life.
    2018 wins: Single Malt Whisky; theatre tickets
    • dimbo61
    • By dimbo61 12th Feb 18, 3:31 PM
    • 9,754 Posts
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    dimbo61
    She has a brother, but to cut a long story short, he's pretty much out of the picture.

    Her property is worth approx £750,000

    When MIL passes away will he come back into the picture ?
    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 12th Feb 18, 3:44 PM
    • 2,392 Posts
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    ReadingTim
    Suspect the real question is "how can I legally get my hands on my quarter of a million pound inheritance before the MIL dies then dump her on the state system and taxpayer when it all gets too much without it coming back to bite me on the @rse?"
    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 4:10 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Trevor84
    Have social services been supportive of your idea to rehome your MIL or is it at present just an idea that you have formed without specifically getting their agreement?
    Originally posted by need an answer
    We are just weighing options at the moment.
    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 4:16 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Trevor84
    Suspect the real question is "how can I legally get my hands on my quarter of a million pound inheritance before the MIL dies then dump her on the state system and taxpayer when it all gets too much without it coming back to bite me on the @rse?"
    Originally posted by ReadingTim
    I find your statement quite offensive. Our first concern is for my MIL well-being.
    We are not using the state as its all self-funded. Obviously I have to enquire about tax implications, hence why I'm on this forum!
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Feb 18, 4:18 PM
    • 43,214 Posts
    • 50,792 Thanks
    G_M
    I think we should stop trying to 2nd guess the care/medical issues. Whether the OP and family are up to managing whatever needs she has is a complex issue, best decided by them, in conjunction with social services and medical advice.

    there are too many variables for us to comment.
    If we decided to purchase as tenants in common as you mentioned, I would assume inheritance tax would still apply if she died?
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    Yes if she jointly owned the property as TIC, then her % of the value of the property at the date of death would be part of her Estate, both for Inheritance Tax purposes, and for Inheritance itself.

    Hence my earlier question about her will.

    She has a brother, but to cut a long story short, he's pretty much out of the picture.
    Again, it's not for us to comment if you don't want us to, but does that mean

    a) he does not get involved/care/want to help, or
    b) he is not included in her Will?

    If she has excluded him from her Will, and your wife is sole Beneficiary, that simplifies things (as you'll inherit the property). But if brother is to inherit 50% of her Estate, then he is most definately not 'out of the picture'.

    Has she made a will and do you know what it says?
    Last edited by G_M; 12-02-2018 at 4:20 PM.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 12th Feb 18, 4:35 PM
    • 24,536 Posts
    • 14,385 Thanks
    xylophone
    She has a brother, but to cut a long story short, he's pretty much out of the picture.
    Has your MIL made a will? Even if she has, remember that a will can be contested.

    If she has chosen not to leave a legacy to her son, one hopes that a letter has been left with her will to explain her decision in this respect.

    I have known a case where there was a bitter and distressing dispute between brother and sister because the brother felt that fair provision had not been made for him and his family.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 4:41 PM
    • 207 Posts
    • 209 Thanks
    need an answer
    We are just weighing options at the moment.
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    Without the agreement of social services there is little point even weighing up your options.

    I would suspect that they would not be supportive of your suggestion so it is likely to be a waste of your time even considering it!

    Not what you want to hear possibly but I suspect your MIL has been placed where she has for her own benefit and based on her needs going forward and wanting to change the situation in the way you describe will not be an option

    I am quite confident that she would not have been given a care home place in the first place if there was any possibility of your wife being deemed appropriate as her main carer either in the home you currently occupy or after the purchase of a suitably adapted property.


    May I ask why you did not moot this suggestion before she entered the care system,it may have been easier to arrange then rather than now she has entered.

    How long has your MIL been in residential care?
    Last edited by need an answer; 12-02-2018 at 4:53 PM.
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    • bris
    • By bris 12th Feb 18, 4:45 PM
    • 7,337 Posts
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    bris
    As long as the care home fees are paid up to date when she moves in with you then legally this can be done.


    Depravation of assets can and will be a future concern if say, 3 years down the line after you have sold up and moved then you decide to put her back into care.


    They can and will chase you for the fess once more, there is no time limit on depravation of assets.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 12th Feb 18, 4:49 PM
    • 21,492 Posts
    • 10,344 Thanks
    lisyloo
    There doesn't necessary have to be any deprivation of assets i.e. MIL can own part of the new house in her own right.
    This does complicate matter if MIL dies and there is another beneficiary or MIL needs to go into care (but wouldn't need that £150K immedaitely if she has another £600K).

    I think you should talk to social services who will have a much better idea of her needs but personally I think 24/7 is a very scary propspect. They would be the best people to advise.

    Ignore posters who aren't being helpful. That's what you get if you ask for free advice unfortuantely.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 5:00 PM
    • 207 Posts
    • 209 Thanks
    need an answer
    This does complicate matter if MIL dies and there is another beneficiary or MIL needs to go into care (but wouldn't need that £150K immedaitely if she has another £600K).
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Adhoc and on demand care services in the home are actually higher costing than those in residential care if you look at them pro rata,so it is not inconceivable that MIL will be paying many thousands of pounds even to supplement the care that her daughter can give her.

    Even £600K doesn't last that long in terms of long term care where the recipient has had a complex stroke that is life changing,to a point life limiting but isn't something that deteriorates in the same way that other conditions can.

    OP I really do understand your flustrations,it must seem as if you are just locked into a situation that you see no end to.
    It is worth remembering that whilst your MIL will continue to be self funded for hopefully a good few years there does come a point where some and then all of the costs can be taken by LA funding.

    I wish you all well going forward.
    Last edited by need an answer; 12-02-2018 at 5:07 PM.
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    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 12th Feb 18, 5:36 PM
    • 2,392 Posts
    • 3,400 Thanks
    ReadingTim
    I find your statement quite offensive. Our first concern is for my MIL well-being.
    We are not using the state as its all self-funded. Obviously I have to enquire about tax implications, hence why I'm on this forum!
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    You might very well find it offensive, but that doesn't alter the fact that many elderly and vulnerable people are taken advantage of by friends and relations in a very similar manner to what you're proposing. And for far smaller sums.

    So, while it's perfectly sensible to investigate the tax and legal implications of what you're proposing, you might want to wind in your outrage at being "offended" - it is possible to protest too much, methinks - especially if someone like a solicitor came to the same view as I cynically articulated....
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 12th Feb 18, 5:50 PM
    • 3,466 Posts
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    bouicca21
    When my mother was in no longer able to live alone, I seriously looked at the possibility of creating an annex in which she could live. All my siblings agreed that money from the sale of her house could be used to fund the alterations (she no longer had capacity). But creating the annex was a minor problem compared with meeting her care needs. We lived in a different LA area and getting a commitment from our LA that they would provide the same care package as she got in her home area meant entering a Kafkaesque nightmare. We couldn't even find out if she could be taken to a lunch club in our area. Over and above that of course we would have needed extra helpers.

    I am so glad we did not do it. In the end we realised that there was no way that we could provide the right level of care and attention that she needed (and deserved). A nursing home was well worth the cost.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 12th Feb 18, 5:57 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
    • 4,978 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    You might very well find it offensive, but that doesn't alter the fact that many elderly and vulnerable people are taken advantage of by friends and relations in a very similar manner to what you're proposing. And for far smaller sums.

    So, while it's perfectly sensible to investigate the tax and legal implications of what you're proposing, you might want to wind in your outrage at being "offended" - it is possible to protest too much, methinks - especially if someone like a solicitor came to the same view as I cynically articulated....
    Originally posted by ReadingTim
    From the info provided by the OP she would still have sufficient assets to fund many years of residential care if the family were unable to cope as her condition worsened.

    Personally I would not do this in a million years. Caring for a frail elderly relative is hard work and can put an enormous strain on family relationships. A friend of mine looked after his disabled mother, and after several years his wife had to move out because the constant sniping from his mother.

    I would also be concerned about the effect the move might have on the health of his MIL especially if she had to move back into residential care at a later date.
    • Blueday
    • By Blueday 12th Feb 18, 7:35 PM
    • 635 Posts
    • 1,687 Thanks
    Blueday
    Without the agreement of social services there is little point even weighing up your options.
    Originally posted by need an answer
    What has it got to do with social services? The lady has the capacity to make her own decisions.

    OP If it's what both your MIL and wife want then yes you are doing the right thing exploring it.
    • bris
    • By bris 12th Feb 18, 7:54 PM
    • 7,337 Posts
    • 6,339 Thanks
    bris
    What has it got to do with social services? The lady has the capacity to make her own decisions.
    Originally posted by Blueday
    Hasn't it already been established the OP has POA? This means there is no capacity to make decisions.


    POA is only granted if there is no capacity so OP what is it, POA or not?
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 12th Feb 18, 7:55 PM
    • 24,536 Posts
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    xylophone
    OP, has your MIL already been assessed for CHC funding?

    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/health-wellbeing/health-services/nhs-continuing-healthcare/
    • Blueday
    • By Blueday 12th Feb 18, 8:11 PM
    • 635 Posts
    • 1,687 Thanks
    Blueday
    Hasn't it already been established the OP has POA? This means there is no capacity to make decisions.


    POA is only granted if there is no capacity so OP what is it, POA or not?
    Originally posted by bris
    She had a serious stroke, but still has mental capacity
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    I assume it is a general POA i.e. someone with capacity delegates responsibility for finances to their nominated attorney.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 12th Feb 18, 8:32 PM
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    • 14,385 Thanks
    xylophone
    Hasn't it already been established the OP has POA? This means there is no capacity to make decisions.


    This is not true.

    The donor can be compos mentis and give the Attorney permission to register and use the PoA.

    https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney



    Property and financial affairs lasting power of attorney
    Use this LPA to give an attorney the power to make decisions about money and property for you, for example:

    managing a bank or building society account
    paying bills
    collecting benefits or a pension
    selling your home

    It can be used as soon as it's registered, with your permission.
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