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  • FIRST POST
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 11th Feb 18, 8:25 PM
    • 44Posts
    • 8Thanks
    diane***
    renting and deposits
    • #1
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:25 PM
    renting and deposits 11th Feb 18 at 8:25 PM
    my son rented with 6 others ...strangers at first.
    the landlord made them jointly responsible for the house with regards their deposit.
    Some renter went some new came over the 2 years, my son was lead tenant.
    one renter lost his job, took to drug/drink and theft from other tenants, noise parties all hours.
    complaints to the landlord were made.
    the landlord could do nothing as long as he paid his rent.
    it deteriorated
    The landlord said he would not be renewing the tenancy to all in February.
    December my son moved out still having to pay rent until February 2018 remaining lead.
    The drunken renter has not paid February's rent saying the landlord cannot make him homeless, he is very abusive, all other tenants have moved having to pay 2 rents and deposits and have suffered abuse from the drunk.
    Will my son and the others be entitled to get their deposit back?
    they left the house in good condition.
    Can the landlord hold their deposits because this drunk is now refusing to pay rent?
    the drunk is still their not paying rent , he has now been reported to the police.
    it seems in law the abusive thieving drunk has all the rights as long as he paid rent no matter how difficult he was to live with.
    all I want to know is will the other young people be entitled to their deposits over £5000
Page 1
    • Finchy2018
    • By Finchy2018 11th Feb 18, 8:29 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Finchy2018
    • #2
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:29 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:29 PM
    They are most likely jointly liable for rent so yes the landlord would be able to keep any owing amounts of rent from the deposit and deduct for any deterioration minus fair wear and tear.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Feb 18, 8:37 PM
    • 43,211 Posts
    • 50,788 Thanks
    G_M
    • #3
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:37 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:37 PM
    You need to confirm, but I assume

    * this is a 'joint and several' tenancy, with all 7 names on the same contract
    * it started on X Feb 2016 (exact date please!)
    * it was a 6 month, or 12 month, contract (which?) and was regularly renewed
    * the latest tenancy ends on X-1 Feb 2018 (exact date please)

    If so, then

    1) if all the tenants named on the latest tenancy agreement all leave on x-1 feb, the tenancy will end and the deposit will be returned to the lead tenant (less any deductions)
    2) if any one of the tenants named on the contract remain 1 day longer, the ttenancy will not end and the depositt will not be returned
    3) if there are occupants in the property who are not named on the tenancy agreement, they are not tenants - they are lodgers of the named tenants (and can be easily evicted by those tenants (who are their landlords)
    4) if there are rent arrears, the landlord can require payment of te arrears from any on, or all, of the names tenants.

    Also please note:
    The landlord said he would not be renewing the tenancy to all in February.
    The LL does not need to renew the tenancy for it to continue. The LL can only end the tenancy by serving a S21 Notice, (2 months in advance) and then going to court. If he does not do this, and the tenants ) or one tenant) stay, then the tenancy does not end, and all tenants remain liable for rent.

    See also:

    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

    * Deposits: payment, protection and return
    Last edited by G_M; 11-02-2018 at 8:42 PM.
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 11th Feb 18, 8:39 PM
    • 426 Posts
    • 451 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #4
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:39 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Feb 18, 8:39 PM
    £5k in deposits sounds very high. Did they register individual deposits or 1 jointly.
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 13th Feb 18, 11:48 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    • #5
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:48 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:48 AM
    the landlord chose the tenants.
    no one knew each other so it seems harsh that the others should be held responsible for the one who has become unstable.
    the landlord gave 2 months notice by letter.
    the contract was for 6 months , signed in August 31st it ends 1st February
    all were named on the tenancy
    the contract had been different prior to August, it was not 6 months it was a contract that said either the landlord or tenant could end the contract by giving 2 months notice.
    the one non paying tenant remains, he says that he cannot be made intentionally homeless by the land lord.
    he had been lead tenant but that was given to my son when he became unreliable.

    why are the other tenants more responsible than the landlord given he was the one who inteviewed the tenants and chose them?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 13th Feb 18, 11:52 AM
    • 2,361 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #6
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:52 AM
    • #6
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:52 AM
    the landlord chose the tenants.
    no one knew each other so it seems harsh that the others should be held responsible for the one who has become unstable. - so why on earth would you sign a joint tenancy??!!
    the landlord gave 2 months notice by letter.
    the contract was for 6 months , signed in August 31st it ends 1st February
    all were named on the tenancy
    the contract had been different prior to August, it was not 6 months it was a contract that said either the landlord or tenant could end the contract by giving 2 months notice.
    the one non paying tenant remains, he says that he cannot be made intentionally homeless by the land lord.
    he had been lead tenant but that was given to my son when he became unreliable.

    why are the other tenants more responsible than the landlord given he was the one who inteviewed the tenants and chose them?
    Originally posted by diane***
    Because the tenants are jointly liable. The LL can happily not evict and keep collecting rent.
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 13th Feb 18, 11:56 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    • #7
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:56 AM
    • #7
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:56 AM
    thank you for your response, i have copied it and sent it to my son.

    if they still have to pay rent after 31st January and they have all left and are paying rent elsewhere and they cannot afford 2 rents what can they do?
    it is not their fault that the one person has hit kid row, he seems to have everyone over a barrel.

    everyones going to end up in difficulties or homeless but the drunk drugged up bloke, the law seems to be on his side.
    Last edited by diane***; 13-02-2018 at 12:04 PM.
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 13th Feb 18, 12:01 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    • #8
    • 13th Feb 18, 12:01 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Feb 18, 12:01 PM
    Comms.

    3 of them had made this place their home, i guess they just wanted to stay, this was the contract , if they wouldn't sign they had to move.
    it's one hell of an expensive lesson, is this why violence erupts? it's clearly not fair or right. the other tenants didn't have a choice who occupied the room.
    the landlord has it every which way.
    everything has been his choice but the tenants are having to pay.
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 13th Feb 18, 12:02 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    • #9
    • 13th Feb 18, 12:02 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Feb 18, 12:02 PM
    how long will they have to pay for this drunk addict?

    how can they get out of it?
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 13th Feb 18, 12:06 PM
    • 426 Posts
    • 451 Thanks
    HampshireH
    Sadly (and as you say expensive lesson learnt) this is why contracts should be read before signing and research done.

    You son didn't have any recourse here. He and others will continue to be liable until all leave.

    If the 'LL evict them it will be much harder for all involved to get rental accommodation in the future as it would be a poor reference. Also all involved are likely to become liable for 'll legal fees if he asks for those to be added to any claim.

    Your sons house mate will be intentially homeless. The Council won't have duty of care to rehouse necessarily so he has no reason to leave until evicted. It isn't in his best interests to do so whilst having a roof under his head. Selfish but sensible in his mind.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 13th Feb 18, 12:07 PM
    • 2,361 Posts
    • 2,241 Thanks
    Comms69
    how long will they have to pay for this drunk addict?

    how can they get out of it?
    Originally posted by diane***
    Potentially forever.


    And if they serve notice themselves, and he doesn't leave, it's double rent.


    It's an expensive lesson in NOT signing joint agreements.


    In reality, it's unlikely to go on for more than 3-4 months.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 13th Feb 18, 12:09 PM
    • 2,361 Posts
    • 2,241 Thanks
    Comms69
    Comms.

    3 of them had made this place their home, i guess they just wanted to stay, this was the contract , if they wouldn't sign they had to move.
    it's one hell of an expensive lesson, is this why violence erupts? it's clearly not fair or right. the other tenants didn't have a choice who occupied the room.
    the landlord has it every which way.
    everything has been his choice but the tenants are having to pay.
    Originally posted by diane***


    Not sure how that's relevant. It was the tenants choice what they did.


    They had a choice, they chose to sign up to a joint tenancy agreement. This is the consequence.


    I sympathise, but legally there is little he can do. And a drunk/drug abuser is unlikely to ever repay the money
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 13th Feb 18, 12:12 PM
    • 1,118 Posts
    • 752 Thanks
    saajan_12
    the landlord chose the tenants.
    no one knew each other so it seems harsh that the others should be held responsible for the one who has become unstable.- Others are held responsible because that's what they specifically agreed to by signing a joint & several tenancy (rather than insisting on individual agreements for a room or going elsewhere). A joint and several tenancy means there is no 'his' or 'her' rent.. each tenant is liable for the full amount.
    the landlord gave 2 months notice by letter. - was this a Section 21 notice, served after the first 4 months of the tenancy (ie since move in not latest agreement)? Were deposits protected in one of the 3 schemes? Theres a whole checklist of things that can invalidate a S21 notice.
    the contract was for 6 months , signed in August 31st it ends 1st February 31 Aug - 1 Feb is 6 months+2 days.. which is it?
    all were named on the tenancy
    the contract had been different prior to August, it was not 6 months it was a contract that said either the landlord or tenant could end the contract by giving 2 months notice.
    the one non paying tenant remains, he says that he cannot be made intentionally homeless by the land lord. - the terminology is off. The LL can make him homeless, but not yet.. LL must serve apply to court for a possession order, and then get bailiffs in. If the tenant moves out before this, he would be deemed to be making himself intentionally homeless meaning he wouldn't get council housing. However unless he has other issues, a single young male is unlikely to get decent council housing, so suggest other tenants explain this to the person still in the property.
    he had been lead tenant but that was given to my son when he became unreliable. - the title of lead tenant is largely irrelevant, may affect mechanics of logging onto the deposit scheme / account for deposit return if applicable.

    why are the other tenants more responsible than the landlord given he was the one who inteviewed the tenants and chose them?
    Originally posted by diane***
    The tenants are responsible for the full rent until all of them vacate and the tenancy ends, because that is what they signed up to in a joint & several tenancy. I wouldn't have taken that on with stranger co tenants, but son did..

    Next steps, I'd suggest
    - Encourage the tenant in residence to move out as he's unlikely to get decent council help.
    - Move back in if no chance of a move out, to reduce other rent costs.
    - Encourage LL to evict quickly by getting a possession order + bailiffs saying they're unlikely to collect on full rent. That would terminate son's rent liability and trigger deposit return if anything left (unlikely)
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 14th Feb 18, 9:53 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    thank you, it all seems like bad news for the young workers involved, they are quite vulnerable, the Landlord played a blinder, which ever way he falls it's up.


    in my upset mood I am hoping the place burns down, he can't charge rent then.


    the drunk drug addict is also comfortable, the only ones to suffer are the up standing law abiding. this sucks. Makes you question the law and who it is there to protect.


    the other tenants have all moved out and have new accommodation, it was impossible to live with this individual and maintain mental health, they couldn't anticipate what they'd come home to or what would be stolen or if they'd get any sleep.


    they have all been paying 2 rents, it was worth that to get away but they cannot dig into savings indefinitely .......... so where is the law for them.


    I am so upset for them..


    I have asked them to go to citizens advice immediately.


    I have read your replies but I haven't really understood the gravity of the situation other than the contract is binding and the landlord is scum.


    I am concerned that the young workers will all end up in court unable to pay 2 rents , all will end up homeless.... how can that be right?.
    • Lokolo
    • By Lokolo 14th Feb 18, 9:58 AM
    • 19,937 Posts
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    Lokolo
    Because your son signed the contract. Why did he sign it if he didn't want to be liable for the others?

    Yes it is a sad state of affairs, but at the end of the day, it is your sons fault for getting into the mess in the first place. You live and learn.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 14th Feb 18, 10:24 AM
    • 2,361 Posts
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    Comms69
    thank you, it all seems like bad news for the young workers involved, they are quite vulnerable, the Landlord played a blinder, which ever way he falls it's up. - vulnerable in what way?


    in my upset mood I am hoping the place burns down, he can't charge rent then. - Actually yes he can, as long as he provides alternate accommodation.


    the drunk drug addict is also comfortable, the only ones to suffer are the up standing law abiding. this sucks. Makes you question the law and who it is there to protect. - Uhm it protects tenants, if your son was unemployed for example, he would be protected.


    the other tenants have all moved out and have new accommodation, it was impossible to live with this individual and maintain mental health, they couldn't anticipate what they'd come home to or what would be stolen or if they'd get any sleep. - did they report him to police etc?


    they have all been paying 2 rents, it was worth that to get away but they cannot dig into savings indefinitely .......... so where is the law for them. - the law is, don't sign joint contracts with people you don't know


    I am so upset for them..


    I have asked them to go to citizens advice immediately.


    I have read your replies but I haven't really understood the gravity of the situation other than the contract is binding and the landlord is scum. - ill explain.


    I am concerned that the young workers will all end up in court unable to pay 2 rents , all will end up homeless.... how can that be right?.
    Originally posted by diane***


    Well they wont end up homeless, as long as they pay the rent on their current homes.


    They might end up in court, but the LL might decide that evicting is quicker than waiting on rent from so many people. (they will still owe some amount)


    In joint tenancies all the people are responsible for 100% of the rent. So your son could be liable for EVERYONE's rent if they stop paying.
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 14th Feb 18, 10:29 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    yes, it seems that the young people went on trust............all ways a mistake.
    they thought that they had to sign , if they didn't then they had to move.


    what really upsets me is that this tenants who had been responsible for collecting the rents and paying the landlord prior to August , his behaviour had been becoming a problem to the landlord before he lost his job and started with the drugs and drink....


    I think the landlord anticipated problems, renaming the lead tenant responsible for collecting the rents and making them all collectively responsible, he knew before the others that this one person was unreliable because he'd had closer dealings with him.


    sure the others should not have taken responsibility for him but it think they reasonable thought it was a collective responsibility to the house , I don't think they anticipated becoming a parent to a grown man.
    Last edited by diane***; 14-02-2018 at 10:40 AM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 14th Feb 18, 10:33 AM
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    Comms69
    yes, it seems that the young people went on trust............all ways a mistake.
    they thought that they had to sign , if they didn't then they had to move.


    what really upsets me is that this tenants who had been responsible for colleting the rents and paying the landlord prior to August , his behaviour had been becoming a problem to the landlord before he lost his job and started with the drugs and drink....


    I think the landlord anticipated problems, renaming the lead tenant responsible for collecting the rents and making them all collectively responsible, he knew before the others that this one person was unreliable because he'd had closer dealings with him. - forget the lead tenant rubbish, it doesn't mean a thing.


    sure the others should not have taken responsibility for him but it think they reasonable thought it was a collective responsibility to the house , I don't think they anticipated becoming a parent to a grown man.
    Originally posted by diane***
    They each owe 100% of the rent, how they pay it is up to them (and transferring money to another tenant is not paying the rent, and should NEVER be done)
    • diane***
    • By diane*** 14th Feb 18, 10:44 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    diane***
    comms .............he has been reported to the police for threatening and abusive behaviour towards the other tenants who he incorrectly blames for all his problems.


    I think going to the citizens advice for help is the best way forward..... although violence would solve the problem quicker and be more satisfying.


    if they end up in courts they will have problems in the future, how can one drugged up drunk destroy so many young peoples lives and the law be on his side?


    they did and do give my son the rent and he pays the landlord..... I think you are quite right though,,,, my son could have been the drunk and spent it ....
    lead is just the collector of the money ....... again it seems an odd way amongst strangers
    Last edited by diane***; 14-02-2018 at 10:47 AM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 14th Feb 18, 10:49 AM
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    Comms69
    comms .............he has been reported to the police for threatening and abusive behaviour towards the other tenants who he incorrectly blames for all his problems. - and what did they do?


    I think going to the citizens advice for help is the best way forward..... although violence would solve the problem quicker and be more satisfying. - and then a conviction, criminal record and future absolutely ruined.... Why did you say that!


    if they end up in courts they will have problems in the future, how can one drugged up drunk destroy so many young peoples lives and the law be on his side? - If they end up in court and lose, and pay with-in 28 days, there will be no impact on their future


    they did and do give my son the rent and he pays the landlord..... I think you are quite right though,,,, my son could have been the drunk and spent it ....
    Originally posted by diane***
    indeed, tell your son the rent only gets paid to the LL or the Letting agent in the future
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