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  • FIRST POST
    • beartruths
    • By beartruths 8th Feb 18, 5:41 PM
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    beartruths
    Listing foreign shares on Confirmation Scotland
    • #1
    • 8th Feb 18, 5:41 PM
    Listing foreign shares on Confirmation Scotland 8th Feb 18 at 5:41 PM
    Hello
    I'm completing form C1 following the death of my partner's father. I've been through all the paperwork and done all the work to value shares etc. Mostly its a bunch of low value shares listed on AIM - apart from shares in Virgin Australia Holdings listed on the Australian Stock Exchange which were valued at £2400 on the date of death.

    The estate value comes to £40,000 ie £4000 over the small estates limit, and having done all the work ourselves so far we are reluctant to get a solicitor onboard.

    My questions are:
    (1)I'm confused how to physically show these shares on the form, and whether or not their value should be included in the summary for confirmation in Scotland,
    and, (2)whether the confirmation form will allow us to have these shares in australia transferred to his widow.

    Many thanks for any help
Page 1
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 8th Feb 18, 6:28 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    • #2
    • 8th Feb 18, 6:28 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Feb 18, 6:28 PM
    They simply need to be listed in the inventary under the title Estate elsewhere. As the estate is way below the IHT threashold the amount to enter in the summary of amount to be paid befor confirmation is 0.

    As for the shares once you get confirmation, I would sell rather than transferring them, as holding small amounts of foreign traded stocks is a right pain as far as dealing and cashing dividends is concerned.
    • beartruths
    • By beartruths 8th Feb 18, 8:00 PM
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    beartruths
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 18, 8:00 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 18, 8:00 PM
    Thanks Keep Pedalling. You're quite right regarding the value - and none of these shares have a hope of returning a dividend. I just want to get them sold / transferred so we can then decide how to put the vaalue to best use.

    However, sorry! - I'm still confused. Should these foreign shares contribute to the 'gross value of estate' after the listing page, or are they merely listed bt separately so their value doesn't contribute to the gross value?

    Many thanks again
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 8th Feb 18, 8:26 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 18, 8:26 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 18, 8:26 PM
    Thanks Keep Pedalling. You're quite right regarding the value - and none of these shares have a hope of returning a dividend. I just want to get them sold / transferred so we can then decide how to put the vaalue to best use.

    However, sorry! - I'm still confused. Should these foreign shares contribute to the 'gross value of estate' after the listing page, or are they merely listed bt separately so their value doesn't contribute to the gross value?

    Many thanks again
    Originally posted by beartruths
    AFAIK the shares don't form part of the estate in Scotland but of estate in Australia so need to be sealt with under the Australian intestacy laws. What often happens in such cases is the foreign jurisdiction accepts a certified copy of the original confirmation.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 8th Feb 18, 9:18 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:18 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:18 PM
    AFAIK the shares don't form part of the estate in Scotland but of estate in Australia so need to be sealt with under the Australian intestacy laws. What often happens in such cases is the foreign jurisdiction accepts a certified copy of the original confirmation.
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    I do not believe that to be correct, residency is the key thing and all assets should be included regardless of location. It only starts getting complicated when you own foreign property where local inheritance laws may be very different (France for instance). Shares, regardless of which market they are traded on, count as movable estate.

    The US shares my wife inherited from her Scottish uncle certainly formed part of his estate and IHT was paid on them, but no US taxes although they were a real pain to sell having to deal with Compuserve in Texas who required lots of paperwork and would only pay in $ by cheque.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 8th Feb 18, 9:32 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:32 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:32 PM
    I do not believe that to be correct, residency is the key thing and all assets should be included regardless of location. It only starts getting complicated when you own foreign property where local inheritance laws may be very different (France for instance). Shares, regardless of which market they are traded on, count as movable estate.

    The US shares my wife inherited from her Scottish uncle certainly formed part of his estate and IHT was paid on them, but no US taxes although they were a real pain to sell having to deal with Compuserve in Texas who required lots of paperwork and would only pay in $ by cheque.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    Of course the value would still have to be included for IHT purpose but the does not alter the fact that the assets outside the jurisdiction. It is where the shareholding is listed that is the deciding factor. UK probate can't deal with foreign assets. The OP needs professional advice to be sure.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 8th Feb 18, 9:52 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:52 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:52 PM
    Of course the value would still have to be included for IHT purpose but the does not alter the fact that the assets outside the jurisdiction. It is where the shareholding is listed that is the deciding factor. UK probate can't deal with foreign assets. The OP needs professional advice to be sure.
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    As far as internationally traded shares are concerned personal experience says otherwise. My wife’s uncle held both Kraft and Dr Pepper shares which were transferred to her once probate had been obtained and this was carried out by a UK broker under instruction from the executor (apparently US listed shares have to be transferred to the beneficiary there was no option to sell)

    During probate dividends were paid to the estate.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 8th Feb 18, 9:58 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:58 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 18, 9:58 PM
    As far as internationally traded shares are concerned personal experience says otherwise. My wife!!!8217;s uncle held both Kraft and Dr Pepper shares which were transferred to her once probate had been obtained and this was carried out by a UK broker under instruction from the executor (apparently US listed shares have to be transferred to the beneficiary there was no option to sell)

    During probate dividends were paid to the estate.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    You may have got away with it but that does not alter the legal principle. The fundamental principle is that the UK Courts can only deal with aseets within their jurisdiction. Probate is done under the auspices of the court.If the shares are listed on a stock exchange outside the UK then probate in that jurisdiction.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 09-02-2018 at 10:28 AM.
    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 8th Feb 18, 11:12 PM
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    troubleinparadise
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 18, 11:12 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 18, 11:12 PM
    I had to deal with an estate that included a share portfolio held in South Africa.

    The UK Will had to be resealed for Probate in SA. This meant instructing a firm of solicitors in SA to act as attorney to handle that, plus the sale of the shares in SA as they couldn’t be transferred and they formed part of the residue of the estate.

    This incurred further UK tax as well as SA tax, plus the payment of the SA solicitors fees. It took over 18 months to achieve that part of settling the estate.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 9th Feb 18, 8:56 AM
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    Keep pedalling
    I had to deal with an estate that included a share portfolio held in South Africa.

    The UK Will had to be resealed for Probate in SA. This meant instructing a firm of solicitors in SA to act as attorney to handle that, plus the sale of the shares in SA as they couldn’t be transferred and they formed part of the residue of the estate.

    This incurred further UK tax as well as SA tax, plus the payment of the SA solicitors fees. It took over 18 months to achieve that part of settling the estate.
    Originally posted by troubleinparadise
    It would appear that resealing is a requirement in Australia as well, but may not be required where the asset is of low value

    http://worldwidelawyers.co.uk/2015/09/14/resealing-a-uk-grant-of-probate-in-australia/

    The process for US shares is somewhat different

    https://www.sharedata.co.uk/index.php/2016/02/22/selling-us-shares/
    • beartruths
    • By beartruths 9th Feb 18, 2:11 PM
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    beartruths
    My thanks to you all for your contributions and experience, its all helpful. You helped me to re-focus and in doing so I found the relevant paragraph in the official guidance which I'd missed despite reading several times.

    The foreign shares are to be listed in the C1 inventory but not included as part of the value for confirmation. Their value is however included in the form C5 for tax purposes.

    Regarding the transfer / sale of the Australian assets - we'll just try it and see. The current value is so low (1/3rd what was paid) that if they don't accept the Scottish Confirmation I doubt we'll bother with them. It would cost more to engage Australian legal advice than they are worth. I'll report back on what happens for the benefit of anybody else in this situation. It may be some months hence!
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