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    • stubbo6376
    • By stubbo6376 8th Feb 18, 1:13 PM
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    stubbo6376
    MPPI Halifax
    • #1
    • 8th Feb 18, 1:13 PM
    MPPI Halifax 8th Feb 18 at 1:13 PM
    Good afternoon,
    I have a current case ongoing with Halifax regarding a Homeowner loan that was taken out in February 2001 and ran until October 2003. The loan was secured against my property and was paid off in full in the October of 2003 when the house was sold. I was told by Halifax 8 weeks ago that PPI had been added to it, so naturally a complaint was raised. After giving very limited information to Halifax, because of the timeframe of the initial loan they investigated and found no wrong doing. After hours of searching previously unknown paperwork we found evidence of savings, shares held, and house sale invoices to show our financial situation. Our current mortgage at the time was an endowment and had insurance products running alongside to offer securities for illnesses/death etc.. We have never asked for PPI/MPPI and are arguing the complaint on our financial suitability with said savings, shares, insurance policies in place. Currently waiting a further investigation..any ideas on strengths of our points
Page 1
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 8th Feb 18, 1:28 PM
    • 19,521 Posts
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    Moneyineptitude
    • #2
    • 8th Feb 18, 1:28 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Feb 18, 1:28 PM
    Sounds like your complaint has already been rejected and that you are wasting your time going back to them because you have failed to find any concrete evidence of mis-selling that won't have already been considered. Critical Illness and Life Assurance have no overlap with Mortgage PPI.

    You are just going receive a terse reiteration of your original rejection.

    If you feel that your complaint has been unfairly rejected, the next stage of the complaint should be to refer it to the Ombudsman. You have only six months from the original rejection in which to do this.
    Last edited by Moneyineptitude; 08-02-2018 at 1:39 PM.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Feb 18, 1:34 PM
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    dunstonh
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 18, 1:34 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 18, 1:34 PM
    I was told by Halifax 8 weeks ago that PPI had been added to it, so naturally a complaint was raised. After giving very limited information to Halifax, because of the timeframe of the initial loan they investigated and found no wrong doing.
    Why was it natural that you complained?
    MPPI is a valid product that you can still buy today. It's not one of the bad types of PPI. So, there is nothing natural about complaining about it. Both the firms and the FOS reject most MPPI complaints.

    After hours of searching previously unknown paperwork we found evidence of savings, shares held, and house sale invoices to show our financial situation.
    Investments are long term and not short term. If you had the money, why did you have the mortgage?

    Typically, at point of sale (which is the only date that matters), you need to have around 2 years income in cash savings to stand much chance of getting a complaint rejected on financial need.

    We have never asked for PPI/MPPI and are arguing the complaint on our financial suitability with said savings, shares, insurance policies in place. Currently waiting a further investigation..any ideas on strengths of our points
    We do not have the benefit of audit trail and sometimes banks roll over easily. Halifax have been one of the easiest to get payouts on. So, with that caveat in mind, there appear to be no real strengths in your complaint.
    1 - you are complaining about a good type of PPI. Not a bad one.
    2 - it is a long term secured debt with lifestyle changing consequences if it goes unpaid (and I pinched that wording from a FOS rejection). So, insurance is common sense.
    3 - it is unclear how much cash savings you are referring to but that rarely works as the mortgage is not your only need if you lose your job or unable to work. It only tends to work with significant cash savings which could cover multiple years.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • stubbo6376
    • By stubbo6376 8th Feb 18, 2:56 PM
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    stubbo6376
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 18, 2:56 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 18, 2:56 PM
    The statements I have provided show savings of £5k and share dividend of £7k, my mortgage was an endowment as stated and had life insurance plus critical illness cover, two policies running separate in payment terms but both to cover a mortgage of £42k. My complaint of mis- selling PPI was made through a CMC with Halifax acknowledging that PPI had been added to a loan. Later I found the paperwork on this loan which was in fact a Halifax homeowner loan that was secured against the property, so effectively a mortgage. After receiving their letter this week stating no cause for not being eligible, suitability, or financial worries they said any further information I had was asked for. As I said I found past financial records showing assets/savings held and stated I was not reliant on insurance policies to cover my loan/ mortgage. Received a letter today saying there was further investigation being carried out, but they had changed their initial wording of PPI being mis-sold to saying it was MPPI, I will lodge my case with the ombudsman.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 8th Feb 18, 3:29 PM
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    Moneyineptitude
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:29 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:29 PM
    The statements I have provided show savings of £5k and share dividend of £7k, my mortgage was an endowment as stated and had life insurance plus critical illness cover,
    Originally posted by stubbo6376
    As already stated, Life and Critical Illness policies have no overlap with mortgage PPI.

    £5K in savings does not indicate that you had no need of the insurance either. If you were made unemployed you would have other demands on your finances, not simply the mortgage payments.

    Could you have easily and immediately accessed your share dividend? Even if you could, it's still not a large enough sum suggesting that you had no financial need for the insurance.

    Again, most mortgage PPI complaints are rejected and the insurance is still being retailed today.
    My complaint of mis- selling PPI was made through a CMC with Halifax acknowledging that PPI had been added to a loan.
    Originally posted by stubbo6376
    You appear to believe that there was something inherently wrong with the insurance but the truth is that, while (some) PPI was widely mis-sold, MPPI is still a useful and recommended insurance.


    You also infer that the insurance was simply "added" to your mortgage without your full knowledge and agreement. This would not have been the case.

    Halifax "acknowledging" that you had PPI is not an admission of any wrong-doing!
    Last edited by Moneyineptitude; 08-02-2018 at 3:32 PM.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Feb 18, 3:33 PM
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    dunstonh
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:33 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:33 PM
    The statements I have provided show savings of £5k and share dividend of £7k,
    So way below the level that is considered enough to not have MPPI.

    my mortgage was an endowment as stated and had life insurance plus critical illness cover, two policies running separate in payment terms but both to cover a mortgage of £42k.
    Endowment does not overlap with MPPI. So, no issues there.

    After receiving their letter this week stating no cause for not being eligible, suitability, or financial worries they said any further information I had was asked for
    Out of everything, this is where most MPPI complaints are measured. Eligibility and suitability.

    As I said I found past financial records showing assets/savings held and stated I was not reliant on insurance policies to cover my loan/ mortgage.
    You may state that but its not a fact. Typically, you are looking at 2 years income or more. You have to be way below that with your amounts.

    I will lodge my case with the ombudsman.
    Dont get your hopes up. The FOS reject most of them too. Based on what you have said, there appears to be no wrongdoing. Of course, we dont have the audit trail or info to hand but if it truly reflects what you have said here, then you would not expect the complaint to be upheld.

    There are plenty of published ombudsman decisions on MPPI to know how they are going to look at.
    such as:
    http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=138660

    You need to remember that you are making an allegation of wrongdoing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having MPPI. It's not like loan or credit card PPI. Which is why you can still buy MPPI today (one of only two types of PPI you can still get). There is no product failing with this MPPI (which is where many types of loan PPI fail and why most loan PPI complaints succeed).
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • stubbo6376
    • By stubbo6376 8th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
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    stubbo6376
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
    I have stated that I didn!!!8217;t rely on the insurance policies in place to cover this loan as they were taken out to cover my endowment mortgage. My point is that this additional borrowing for home improvements carried PPI which if all suitability checks would of been done why was it deemed right for me. The loan was for £10k and as stated we had share dividend to the time of £7k which could be cashed in at any time. Surely any consumer credit agreement would highlight costs and look into affordability, and what measures where in place for such an event as unemployment or illness. Further to that what type of MPPI was asked for as it came in many forms to cover unemployment,illness, loss of earnings. If a new customer now had savings and assets in shares worth in excess of the amount wanted to loan, would advice still be given on taking out protection.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 8th Feb 18, 3:54 PM
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    Moneyineptitude
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:54 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:54 PM
    If a new customer now had savings and assets in shares worth in excess of the amount wanted to loan, would advice still be given on taking out protection.
    Originally posted by stubbo6376
    Since being able to claim on an insurance policy would negate the need to rely on such savings then the insurance would still be recommended.

    Having already been rejected, I think you are going to struggle with this.

    Good luck at the Ombudsman.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Feb 18, 3:57 PM
    • 91,128 Posts
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    dunstonh
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:57 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 18, 3:57 PM
    If a new customer now had savings and assets in shares worth in excess of the amount wanted to loan, would advice still be given on taking out protection.
    Yes it would. As the point made a number of times now is that you are looking at having sufficient savings to cover all your expenditure for a few years. Not just the loan in isolation.

    You seem to think that the low level of savings you had is enough. It is not enough. Any shortfall allows an insurance policy to be put in its place. As noted from the FOS decision (and that is just one of many), they look at the savings as a ratio of income. So, how did your £5000 savings stack up against your total household income? (you and spouse/partner)
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • stubbo6376
    • By stubbo6376 8th Feb 18, 4:48 PM
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    stubbo6376
    It seems your suggestion that having savings, assets, employees benefits and a joint income of circa £40k pa was still not enough to be classed as unsuitable for the policy. I respect your opinion in any of these points but can anyone really point to a conclusion, it’s also for them to make their case and you guys are just financial advisors and not financial investigators.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 8th Feb 18, 5:00 PM
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    Moneyineptitude
    can anyone really point to a conclusion
    Originally posted by stubbo6376
    Well, the "conclusion" is that the Bank have already rejected your complaint and the Ombudsman is likely to do the same.

    On a positive note, you won't have to pay fully a third of your redress (plus VAT) to your Claims Management Company!

    Happy for you to return and tell us of a different result.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 8th Feb 18, 6:11 PM
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    dunstonh
    It seems your suggestion that having savings, assets, employees benefits and a joint income of circa £40k pa was still not enough to be classed as unsuitable for the policy.
    It's not enough. It is liquid savings (i.e. cash) that is relative to your earnings that matters. I have also given you a FOS decision that tells you how they considered it. If you read the FOS decisions you generally find that those that have the money to clear their debt in full or have around 2 years worth of household income get upheld. Those with less get rejected (on that particular point).

    It is all about the scale of the savings relative to the debt and income. A joint income of £40k would need around £60k-80k of savings to be considered enough. However, if the MPPI could only pay out a maximum of £200pm over the 12 months then you would expect the complaint to be upheld. You cant put an actual figure on it as the more you earn, the more savings you need. However, if the MPPI benefit is largely pointless as its so small relative to the rest then you can get an uphold decision.

    here is another one where the person claimed they had a "significant level of savings" and the mortgage was not much larger than the savings. It too was rejected.
    http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=38594

    I respect your opinion in any of these points but can anyone really point to a conclusion, it!!!8217;s also for them to make their case and you guys are just financial advisors and not financial investigators.
    And you are just someone with no knowledge in this area and an emotional attachment. Only I am an IFA. Moneyineptitude is not. However, I am also a compliance officer with FCA control functions in that area. I am more qualified than any so-called financial investigator that deals with complaints. i have no attachment to your complaint and have told plenty on here when they do have a good reason and when they dont. However, none of that matters.

    The FOS ombudsman decisions where savings was mentioned and the complaints were upheld number 2487. Where they were rejected is 13046. That covers all types of PPI though. Its not possible to filter by product type. And that is between 2012 until yesterday.

    As I said already, we dont have access the audit trail. Plus, there is a human element which can lead to inconsistency. We are just positioning it with what you expect to see happen based on the limited information you have given.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
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