Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 6th Feb 18, 8:43 AM
    • 71Posts
    • 30Thanks
    catflap11
    Unenforceable CCA
    • #1
    • 6th Feb 18, 8:43 AM
    Unenforceable CCA 6th Feb 18 at 8:43 AM
    Hi All

    I have two accounts with IDEM (previously MBNA all pre 2007) totalling £5,000. They were defaulted by MBNA before they were sold on and the defaults dropped off last May 2017.

    I have been paying a reduced amount of £50 per month but I have recently submitted a CCA request and IDEM have responded with (paraphrased):

    "Unfortunately we are unable to supply a copy of the Credit Agreement at present and acknowledge that until we do so the agreement cannot be enforced. We have contacted the original lender for a copy and if available it will be sent to you...

    The balance of the account is still outstanding and we will continue to pursue this debt which will include registering any arrears and defaults with credit reference agencies. We can confirm that the balance remains due and we will continue to contact you to discuss repayment proposals.

    You are free to take whatever action you consider appropriate but we will not be releasing you from any obligation under the agreement"


    I have not yet cancelled my standing order but I had a couple of questions about the next steps:

    1) As they cannot register another default if I stop paying, what else can they do?
    2) is it worth offering a full and final settlement of say £100 to get them off my back forever?
    3) If I stop paying, will this affect my credit record?

    Many thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • Oldwood
    • By Oldwood 6th Feb 18, 10:47 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Oldwood
    • #2
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:47 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:47 AM
    You've called their bluff.

    As you've sent a CCA request, they have 12 working days from the date they received it to provide you with the information. If they cannot then they cannot enforce the debt. What date did you sent it? What date is on their reply?

    Sadly it seems that you've blown any chance of using the 'statute barred' route. When did you start making payments to IDEM?
    • simon the poet
    • By simon the poet 6th Feb 18, 10:58 AM
    • 178 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    simon the poet
    • #3
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:58 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Feb 18, 10:58 AM
    They can do very little unless they turn up something which will pass as a compliant copy of your agreement.
    What they say is correct.

    I would say offering a full and final is always a good idea, that is if you owe the debt and in this case it seems you do.

    As far as your credit report is concerned there will be no immediate effect.

    It may be that each payment you make is being recorded and as a result the six year period until it drops off will continue to re-start for as long as you keep paying instalments.

    This is a lamentable consequence of trying to do the right thing and pay the debt in my view, but it is nevertheless the case.

    They can continue to pester you, but not harass of course.
    Last edited by simon the poet; 06-02-2018 at 11:01 AM.
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 6th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    • #4
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    Thanks all for the responses, I have been paying them for at least 6 years. The CCA was sent 3 weeks ago and the letter from them stating that it was unenforceable was received yesterday. I appreciate that MBNA may find a record of my agreement in the future but I think trying to head them off before they do with a full and final offer might be worth a go.

    Should I cancel my standing order at this stage? i guess if i stop paying it starts the 6 year timebar clock.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 6th Feb 18, 12:35 PM
    • 11,641 Posts
    • 9,007 Thanks
    fatbelly
    • #5
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:35 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:35 PM
    Unenforceable is unenforceable, and they have confirmed as much.

    They have also said 'You are free to take whatever action you consider appropriate'

    so you can offer a F&F if you wish, or just cancel your standing order and ignore them.

    The entry drops off your file 6 years after it was defaulted, which has already happened. Nothing you or they do now will cause it to reappear unless they try a court claim, to which you now have a defence.
    • Suseka97
    • By Suseka97 6th Feb 18, 12:40 PM
    • 184 Posts
    • 282 Thanks
    Suseka97
    • #6
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:40 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Feb 18, 12:40 PM
    Ultimately the choice is yours - but seeing as they have stated that the debt is 'currently' unenforceable I would stop paying the SO and put that money aside for now. Leave it for as long as you wish before offering an F&F, if at all. As you say, the 6 year 'statute bar' clock starts ticking from the moment you stop acknowledging (paying/communicating with them about) the debt.

    The good news is that the default has already dropped from your credit file - so there's nothing more they can do to affect that. So just file away any letters until they are able to comply and thus prove enforceability - or perhaps eventually they will offer you a significant discount in the form of an F&F which you can then choose to accept or not.
    LBM Apr13: 14 Creditors / £85k+ owed
    Self-managed Aug17
    Current Status: 6 Creditors / £11,994
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 6th Feb 18, 1:14 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    • #7
    • 6th Feb 18, 1:14 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Feb 18, 1:14 PM
    Fantastic, thanks all for the guidance
    • simon the poet
    • By simon the poet 6th Feb 18, 1:34 PM
    • 178 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    simon the poet
    • #8
    • 6th Feb 18, 1:34 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Feb 18, 1:34 PM
    Just a point regarding your credit file, the entry will still show as long as you continue payments and for some years after. (dependant on the creditor.

    Although it may show as an arrangement to pay.(AP)

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1626051#tab_2 Post 10

    Also in regard of the unenforceability, this only applies for as long as no agreement is found or for as long as the creditor does not have the information to compile an accurate copy.

    If one is constructed and supplied any arrears in payment for the interim will be due, if the agreement is still active.
    Last edited by simon the poet; 06-02-2018 at 1:45 PM.
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 6th Feb 18, 1:53 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    • #9
    • 6th Feb 18, 1:53 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Feb 18, 1:53 PM
    Just a point regarding your credit file, the entry will still show as long as you continue payments and for some years after. (dependant on the creditor.

    Although it may show as an arrangement to pay.(AP)

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1626051#tab_2 Post 10

    Also in regard of the unenforceability, this only applies for as long as no agreement is found or for as long as the creditor does not have the information to compile an accurate copy.

    If one is constructed and supplied any arrears in payment for the interim will be due, if the agreement is still active.
    Originally posted by simon the poet
    Thanks, however it does not appear on any of the three referencing agencies (it vanished last May) could it reappear it i stop paying? It didn't appear as an AP at any point?
    • simon the poet
    • By simon the poet 6th Feb 18, 2:17 PM
    • 178 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    simon the poet
    Thanks, however it does not appear on any of the three referencing agencies (it vanished last May) could it reappear it i stop paying? It didn't appear as an AP at any point?
    Originally posted by catflap11
    I should think if its gone its gone.

    I take it the account is not referred to at all on your reports?

    I think I wold be inclined to not do anything and leave the next move to them(if they make one at all).
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 6th Feb 18, 2:23 PM
    • 11,641 Posts
    • 9,007 Thanks
    fatbelly
    Thanks, however it does not appear on any of the three referencing agencies (it vanished last May) could it reappear it i stop paying? It didn't appear as an AP at any point?
    Originally posted by catflap11
    No .
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 6th Feb 18, 8:25 PM
    • 13,011 Posts
    • 12,611 Thanks
    sourcrates
    If the default has dropped off your file, nothing can bring it back.

    They cant do anything except spout hot air.

    I would excercise caution for now though, as when debts are sold, no paperwork changes hands, they always have to go back to the original creditor to satisfy a CCA request.

    You can with hold payment until the OC contacts you, as its entirly possible they may still have paperwork, wait until they confirm if they have it or not.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 7th Feb 18, 8:41 AM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    If the default has dropped off your file, nothing can bring it back.

    They cant do anything except spout hot air.

    I would excercise caution for now though, as when debts are sold, no paperwork changes hands, they always have to go back to the original creditor to satisfy a CCA request.

    You can with hold payment until the OC contacts you, as its entirly possible they may still have paperwork, wait until they confirm if they have it or not.
    Originally posted by sourcrates
    Thanks, I have gone back to them with a low ball F&F offer letter using the template. if they reject it or find the paperwork then I can negotiate with them at that point.
    • jcorbygas
    • By jcorbygas 7th Feb 18, 11:24 AM
    • 574 Posts
    • 278 Thanks
    jcorbygas
    Dont want to put a downer on this but we had 2 debts with Idem from MBNA.
    I requested CCA in mid June - they wrote end of June saying cant supply at present etc but at the end of November they wrote again with a copy of the actual signed by me application form and terms and conditions and the same with the other debt.

    I wrote and advised that I would be paying them a token amount on each one which is nowhere as much as I was paying for 6 years via Stepchange and I hope that I can offer full and finals in a couple of years time.
    • January2015
    • By January2015 7th Feb 18, 11:47 AM
    • 1,862 Posts
    • 4,943 Thanks
    January2015
    Dont want to put a downer on this but we had 2 debts with Idem from MBNA.
    I requested CCA in mid June - they wrote end of June saying cant supply at present etc but at the end of November they wrote again with a copy of the actual signed by me application form and terms and conditions and the same with the other debt.

    I wrote and advised that I would be paying them a token amount on each one which is nowhere as much as I was paying for 6 years via Stepchange and I hope that I can offer full and finals in a couple of years time.
    Originally posted by jcorbygas
    Don't believe that because they sent you a CCA and signed application form that it is enforceable. We had a £12k MBNA debt and they supplied everything, including every statement, the actual applciation form we signed... the lot. However, after having the documentation checked in was 100% UNENFORCEABLE

    Theses vultures rely on the probability that consumers will just think, oh goodness they had the paperwork, that means it's enforceable. Sometimes it's the T&Cs that make it unenforceable. In our case it was a term on the application form we signed which was never made available to us at the time of signing (or something like that). I would never had known if I hadn't taken advice
    DFW Nerd No. 1484 LBM 07/01/15 Debt was £95k I'm driving it down
    £1k emergency fund (member #84) £1k/£1k
    Xmas 2017 £1 p/day challenge No. 20 - £420/£730
    Make £10 p/day Feb £74.31, Mar £664.37 Apr £40
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 7th Feb 18, 12:03 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    Thanks all, that's why I thought id get in now with a F&F offer, on the chance they find something in the future.
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 7th Feb 18, 12:09 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    Don't believe that because they sent you a CCA and signed application form that it is enforceable. We had a £12k MBNA debt and they supplied everything, including every statement, the actual applciation form we signed... the lot. However, after having the documentation checked in was 100% UNENFORCEABLE

    Theses vultures rely on the probability that consumers will just think, oh goodness they had the paperwork, that means it's enforceable. Sometimes it's the T&Cs that make it unenforceable. In our case it was a term on the application form we signed which was never made available to us at the time of signing (or something like that). I would never had known if I hadn't taken advice
    Originally posted by January2015
    Thanks for that, as a matter of interest who did you get to check the T&Cs?
    • January2015
    • By January2015 7th Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • 1,862 Posts
    • 4,943 Thanks
    January2015
    Thanks for that, as a matter of interest who did you get to check the T&Cs?
    Originally posted by catflap11
    I joined another site called All about debt. They have expert knowledge in this area, but also run my documentation past the solicitor they retain. No cost to me for her just to look at and come back with UE
    DFW Nerd No. 1484 LBM 07/01/15 Debt was £95k I'm driving it down
    £1k emergency fund (member #84) £1k/£1k
    Xmas 2017 £1 p/day challenge No. 20 - £420/£730
    Make £10 p/day Feb £74.31, Mar £664.37 Apr £40
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 7th Feb 18, 12:30 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    catflap11
    Brilliant thank you!
    • BBH123
    • By BBH123 7th Feb 18, 1:51 PM
    • 552 Posts
    • 905 Thanks
    BBH123
    Idem took me all the way to court and it came to the final hearing and they asked for Tomlin orders and all sorts and I continued to ask for proof the debt was mine and at the last minute they halted proceedings because they couldn't offer proof.


    The letter said they ' reserve the right' to continue court action if the proof turns up but given it was going through the courts for 9 months and the debt was apparently signed for 16yrs ago its unlikely.


    I have asked Step change what I should do about stopping the payments to them and have yet to hear.
    Save 12k in 2018 challenge #14
    484 / 10000
    Saving for Christmas 2018 - £1 a day challenge
    #15 31/365
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,350Posts Today

9,267Users online

Martin's Twitter