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  • FIRST POST
    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 5th Feb 18, 4:42 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 2Thanks
    NRS1973
    CEL Claim Form Company Vehicle
    • #1
    • 5th Feb 18, 4:42 PM
    CEL Claim Form Company Vehicle 5th Feb 18 at 4:42 PM
    Hi all

    I'd just like to say thanks for all the advice and help on this forum, with regards a previous case. I also know not to waste peoples time as I'm sure most of my questions can be answered by reading the various posts on here. I do have one question that I can't seem to find the answer too, so am hoping that by posting this thread, someone may be able to help.

    My brother has a company van (registered to the company) and last year 02/2017 got a PCN through the post from CEL. He didn't do anything except ignore it, and the numerous letters from Wright Hassall, and now has a County Claim Letter.

    I have drafted a defence for him (again from the advice on this site), and is pretty much similar to all the CEL defences. However, I am unsure as to how to sign it? Do I put the name of the company as the defendant, and then sign at the bottom with a signature that states 'for Company Name'? They have not identified the driver.

    If someone could help with this, it would be much appreciated. I have already responded (acknowledged) the claim online.

    Thanks
    Last edited by NRS1973; 08-02-2018 at 11:53 AM.
Page 1
    • Castle
    • By Castle 5th Feb 18, 4:50 PM
    • 1,489 Posts
    • 1,976 Thanks
    Castle
    • #2
    • 5th Feb 18, 4:50 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Feb 18, 4:50 PM
    The county court letter will have the name of the defendant on it.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Feb 18, 4:53 PM
    • 17,320 Posts
    • 21,707 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 5th Feb 18, 4:53 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Feb 18, 4:53 PM
    I am no expert, but only the "person" who received the claim form can "sign" it

    ideally that person either prints the defence , signs and dates it , rescans back to pc, save as a pdf and emails it as a pdf attachment to the CCBC

    OR they add an electronic signature to the pdf defence and emails it as mentioned above

    generally we would not recommend mailing it to the CCBC, OR we would say email it AND mail it, for safety

    if the MCOL was in the company name, then that would be a conundrum but there are some claims on here in company names so read those threads if this is the case

    if the hirer or lessee has been named and its in that persons name, only that person should be signing and sending it (there are cases where its done on behalf of that person but I am trying to keep it simple here)

    if you get a reply from people who have had the same issues, or from Johnnersh or LOC123 then take heed of their "professional" advice , or from regulars like Coupon Mad or Bargepole or a few other regulars on here who can advise you
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 5th Feb 18, 5:11 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    • #4
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:11 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:11 PM
    Thanks for that. I was about to acknowledge the claim once I wrote this post, but am unsure as to how to register as a company, The company is being taken to court, not an individual. Therefore, I'm guessing that I can't register as an individual and acknowledge the claim.?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Feb 18, 5:15 PM
    • 1,692 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:15 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:15 PM
    You register as an officer of the company, if you can do so, and acknowledge as such.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 5th Feb 18, 5:16 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,278 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #6
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:16 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:16 PM
    if the company is being taken to court it could get nasty

    the court of THEY chose

    is this a limited company?

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/company-not-liable-for-drivers-personal.html
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 5th Feb 18, 5:26 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    • #7
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:26 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:26 PM
    Yes. The claim form is addressed to the company. I've registered on the MCOL site as an organisation, but it's not recognising the claim number/password.
    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 5th Feb 18, 5:27 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    • #8
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:27 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:27 PM
    Tried doing that (I think), but its not recognising the claim number/ defence password.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 5th Feb 18, 5:37 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,278 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #9
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:37 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Feb 18, 5:37 PM
    ring MCOL or whoever in the morning , NOT the parking Co
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 5th Feb 18, 5:42 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    Will do. Thanks. Can't understand how they can take a company to court?! Guess they'll try anything!!
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 5th Feb 18, 5:59 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,278 Thanks
    pappa golf
    await other replies , because this is slightly different to normal

    perhaps edit (advanced) your first post change title from CEL Claim Form to CEL Claim Form company vehicle

    there are so many cases every day that regulars skip over ones that are normal , and full info in newbies thread
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Feb 18, 10:38 PM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,658 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    CEL cannot hold a company liable because they don't use POFA Notice to Keepers, and if the driver was merely at a retail park it's likely that the driver was also not 'engaged in company business on behalf of the company' (read CPS v AJH Films).

    Make sure in the defence, you rebut the possibility of 'keeper liability' and rebut the possibility that the driver was acting at all times 'on behalf of' the company in its business.

    Re signing it, add the person's name and the 'position or office held' if he is signing on behalf of a company.

    The heading in the defence must show the defendant as the company.

    Don't forget that a company defendant may not get their choice of court:
    6.6 Which court will hear the case?
    The court will normally transfer the case automatically to the defendant!!!8217;s nearest county court if:
    The case is defended.
    and
    The claim is for a fixed amount.
    and
    The defendant is an individual, not a company.
    In other cases, either party can ask for the case to be transferred to another county court. If there are reasons (e.g. attendance by someone with a disability) for the hearing to take place at a particular court you should indicate this in the Directions Questionnaire and the judge will take this into account.
    But luckily, CEL tend to discontinue well-defended claims with no liability. Keep copious notes of costs involved and the potential cost of an Officer of the company having to travel to a Court nearest where CEL are.

    Email CEL, once the defence is in,
    with a detailed 'provisional costs schedule' telling them that the company cannot be held liable and encouraging them to drop the case before they contemplate paying a hearing fee, otherwise the Defendant company will pursue their full costs, and additional costs on an indemnity basis, pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14(2)(g). Give them 14 days to drop the proceedings, and keep proof of posting of that letter (NOT 'signed for', just a certificate of posting from a PO counter, a free 'receipt' and keep it safely stapled to a copy of the letter offering to 'drop hands').
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 08-02-2018 at 11:56 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 8th Feb 18, 11:55 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    Thanks for everyone's help so far. I've spoken to MCOL and managed to complete the AoS by email. I'm still amending the defence with the advice given here so far. Thanks Again. Will put up a draft in due course.
    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 14th Feb 18, 12:36 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    Hi all. I've finalised the defence based on all advice given. I'd be extremely grateful if you could give me some feedback as to whether this is acceptable and ready to submit?

    Thanks again. Here goes:

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    XXXXXXXXX

    Claim Number: XXXXXXXX


    I XXXXXX, am a Director of the company which is the defendant in this matter and registered keeper of vehicle XXXXXX. I currently reside at XXXXXX.
    I deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:
    1. The Claim Form issued on 11/10/2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by !!!8220;Civil Enforcement Limited!!!8221;.
    2. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.
    (a) There was no compliant !!!8216;Letter before County Court Claim!!!8217;, under the Practice Direction.
    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.
    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.
    (d) The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs. These documents, and the !!!8216;Letter before County Court Claim!!!8217; should have been produced, pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction !!!8211; Pre Action Conduct. This constitutes a deliberate attempt to thwart any efforts to defend the claim or to !!!8220;take stock!!!8221;, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction. Again, this totally contradicts the guidance outlined in the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (2017), the aims of which are:
    (i)!!!8216;early engagement and communication between the parties, including early exchange of sufficient information about the matter to help clarify whether there are any issues in dispute
    (ii) enable the parties to resolve the matter without the need to start court proceedings, including agreeing a reasonable repayment plan or considering using an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) procedure
    (iii) encourage the parties to act in a reasonable and proportionate manner in all dealings with one another (for example, avoiding running up costs which do not bear a reasonable relationship to the sums in issue) and
    (iv) support the efficient management of proceedings that cannot be avoided.!!!8217;
    (v) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as disclosing no cause of action and having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.
    (f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;
    (i)Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge
    (ii) A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)
    (iii) How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)
    (iv) Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper
    (v) Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter
    (vi) If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed
    (vii) If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed.
    (g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.
    3. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict !!!8216;keeper liability!!!8217; provisions.
    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when it is believed that neither the signs, nor any NTK mentioned a possible additional £229.10for outstanding debt and damages.
    4. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative!!!8217;s (or even admin) costs!!!8217; were incurred.
    5. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. As far as I can ascertain, based upon the very vague particulars of claim and complete lack of evidence and photographs, and without having been furnished with the alleged signage 'contract', none of this applies in this material case.
    6. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.
    (a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
    (b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.
    (c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    (ii) Non existent ANPR 'data use' signage - breach of ICO rules and the BPA Code of Practice
    (iii) It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    (iv) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    (v) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
    (d) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    (ii) the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (iii) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    7. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.
    8. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.
    9. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.
    10. Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car over 10 months later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.
    11. The CPS vs AJH Films case has shown that liability cannot transfer from driver to keeper. The company rebuts that they are liable for the driver, and that the driver was at all times acting in and for the benefit of the company.
    12. Furthermore
    (i) If the court believes there was a contract (which is denied) this is just the sort of 'simple financial contract' identified at the Supreme Court as one with an easily quantifiable loss (i.e. the tariff), identified as completely different from the complex 'free parking licence' arrangement in Beavis.
    (ii) Where loss can be quantified, the 'complex' and 'completely different' Beavis decision is inapplicable, as was found in ParkingEye Ltd v Cargius, A0JD1405 at Wrexham County Court.
    (iii) At the Court of Appeal stage in Beavis, pay-per-hour car parks were specifically held by those Judges (in findings not contradicted in the Supreme Court later) as still being subject to the "penalty" rule, with the potential for the charge to be held to be wholly disproportionate to the tariff, and thus unrecoverable. In other words, charging £100 for a period of time for which the 'agreed and published' tariff rate is £1/hour, would be perverse, contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and not a matter that the courts should uphold.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:
    (i) Failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 11th October 2017.
    (ii) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.


    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.
    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Feb 18, 12:10 AM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,658 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I currently reside at XXXXXX.
    No need for that, remove your address.

    #3 says 'hold me liable' but you need to change such things to 'hold a keeper company liable' as you say at the start that the company (registered keeper) is the Defendant.

    Also think how better to word this which makes no sense for a company, who is not a person with 'recollection':
    10. Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NRS1973
    • By NRS1973 18th Feb 18, 5:07 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    NRS1973
    Thank you for your prompt response and help. I will make the necessary amendments. I take it that apart from what you have highlighted, the rest of it seems satisfactory?

    Thanks again.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Feb 18, 5:42 PM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,658 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I skim read it but thought it did the job! See if anyone adds any more thoughts.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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