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  • FIRST POST
    • fivegoldstars
    • By fivegoldstars 5th Feb 18, 9:37 AM
    • 108Posts
    • 68Thanks
    fivegoldstars
    Playing a PPC at their own game
    • #1
    • 5th Feb 18, 9:37 AM
    Playing a PPC at their own game 5th Feb 18 at 9:37 AM
    Ok, before I start, you can take this thread as a frivolous bit of fun, or a serious discussion on parking contracts. I've had quite a sleepless night, and when I do, I tend to have crazy ideas which spin round and round.


    I've recently been ticketed for parking and leaving a site. Now, after extensive reading, it's my understanding that the PPC are not suggesting that they are penalising, or attempting to 'fine' for this transgression, they are legitimately offering me the opportunity to park and leave site for a fee. They are not able to forbid me from taking certain actions - i.e. leaving the site - so their offer of contract is there for me to accept should I choose. The £60 parking charge is an invitation to park in this manner.
    As with most sites, the PPC also say that I should pay a parking charge if I don't park within a bay. Now, we know that this is an attempt to extort £60 out of people for having a wheel over a white line, but what is the contractual offer here? To my mind, it is that I may park anywhere within the car park if I choose, although there is a fee of £60 for that privilege. So let's say that I decide that I want to enter into that contract. Where I really want to park is straight across the two lane entrance-come-exit. I'd like to park there for 12 hours. The contractual offer is there, and I have accepted. I will gladly pay £60 for parking in such a manner.
    Now, I'm assuming this goes one of two ways. Firstly, I'm ticketed. In which case, the PPC have acknowledged and ratified this contract. My car can stay there for twelve hours and I'll pay up as soon as I receive the invoice. Secondly, I'm asked to move either by the PPC or, more likely, the police. Obviously this will take some time to happen but, at this point, if I accept the request to move, then the PPC must release me from my contract as they have failed to hold up their part. In which case, my couple of hours blocking a car park is free of charge.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Feb 18, 10:43 AM
    • 8,143 Posts
    • 7,422 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 5th Feb 18, 10:43 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Feb 18, 10:43 AM
    it's my understanding that the PPC are not suggesting that they are penalising, or attempting to 'fine' for this transgression, they are legitimately offering me the opportunity to park and leave site for a fee.

    Perhaps, it depends how the sign is worded. Most PCNs are for breach of contract. Contractual charges should include v.a.t., did they send a vat invoice?

    If this is an invoice for alleged breach of contract, leaving site may well be an unfair contractual tern. It has not been successful in court.

    Watch this video and see what one MP thinks about PPCs trying to charge people £100 for leaving site.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41.

    As you can see, the cards of these scammers have been well and truly marked, you can help to consign them to history by complaining to your MP and your local Trading Standards Officer, (not CAB), in writing.
    Last edited by The Deep; 05-02-2018 at 10:54 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 5th Feb 18, 1:03 PM
    • 2,213 Posts
    • 6,459 Thanks
    bargepole
    • #3
    • 5th Feb 18, 1:03 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Feb 18, 1:03 PM
    Perhaps, it depends how the sign is worded. Most PCNs are for breach of contract. Contractual charges should include v.a.t., did they send a vat invoice?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Not correct, I'm afraid. This was ruled upon by the Court of Appeal in VCS v HMRC.

    If the charge is damages for breach of contract, VAT does not apply.

    If it is a charge for a service, eg you may park here for £100, then it would attract VAT.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 31. Lost 9.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 5th Feb 18, 1:50 PM
    • 2,687 Posts
    • 4,024 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 5th Feb 18, 1:50 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Feb 18, 1:50 PM
    Ok, before I start, you can take this thread as a frivolous bit of fun, or a serious discussion on parking contracts. I've had quite a sleepless night, and when I do, I tend to have crazy ideas which spin round and round.


    I've recently been ticketed for parking and leaving a site. Now, after extensive reading, it's my understanding that the PPC are not suggesting that they are penalising, or attempting to 'fine' for this transgression, they are legitimately offering me the opportunity to park and leave site for a fee. They are not able to forbid me from taking certain actions - i.e. leaving the site - so their offer of contract is there for me to accept should I choose. The £60 parking charge is an invitation to park in this manner.
    As with most sites, the PPC also say that I should pay a parking charge if I don't park within a bay. Now, we know that this is an attempt to extort £60 out of people for having a wheel over a white line, but what is the contractual offer here? To my mind, it is that I may park anywhere within the car park if I choose, although there is a fee of £60 for that privilege. So let's say that I decide that I want to enter into that contract. Where I really want to park is straight across the two lane entrance-come-exit. I'd like to park there for 12 hours. The contractual offer is there, and I have accepted. I will gladly pay £60 for parking in such a manner.
    Now, I'm assuming this goes one of two ways. Firstly, I'm ticketed. In which case, the PPC have acknowledged and ratified this contract. My car can stay there for twelve hours and I'll pay up as soon as I receive the invoice. Secondly, I'm asked to move either by the PPC or, more likely, the police. Obviously this will take some time to happen but, at this point, if I accept the request to move, then the PPC must release me from my contract as they have failed to hold up their part. In which case, my couple of hours blocking a car park is free of charge.
    Originally posted by fivegoldstars
    Interesting, why not try it and then let us know how it unfolds?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Feb 18, 1:56 PM
    • 1,692 Posts
    • 1,892 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 5th Feb 18, 1:56 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Feb 18, 1:56 PM
    Police can!!!8217;t get involved on private land unless there is a breach of the peace. It!!!8217;s a civil matter only.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    • 5,638 Posts
    • 4,326 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 5th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    Police can't get involved on private land unless there is a breach of the peace.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    There almost certainly will be a breach of the peace if he blocks the entrance/exit as described.
    .
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Feb 18, 3:11 PM
    • 8,143 Posts
    • 7,422 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #7
    • 5th Feb 18, 3:11 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Feb 18, 3:11 PM
    Not correct, I'm afraid. This was ruled upon by the Court of Appeal in VCS v HMRC.

    If the charge is damages for breach of contract, VAT does not apply.

    If it is a charge for a service, eg you may park here for £100, then it would attract VAT.
    Originally posted by bargepole

    Is that not what I said?
    Last edited by The Deep; 05-02-2018 at 4:17 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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