Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Hoblands
    • By Hoblands 4th Feb 18, 2:38 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Hoblands
    Employee has doctors certicficate but very fit
    • #1
    • 4th Feb 18, 2:38 PM
    Employee has doctors certicficate but very fit 4th Feb 18 at 2:38 PM
    Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

    Not sure if anyone can offer me some advice? I run a small maintenance / cleaning company employing 4 full time staff. One of whom has been off for the past 3 weeks with a medical (physical) problem and I've been paying him the compulsory sick pay as per my legal obligations. He has the relevant doctors certificate but I've become aware that whilst not working he still plays in a weekend 5-aside football league, goes out for bike rides and visits the pub most evenings. As the sick pay comes out of my own pocket and is having an impact on my own income this is concerning me somewhat. Is there anything I do?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Paul
Page 1
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 4th Feb 18, 3:21 PM
    • 11,115 Posts
    • 13,037 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #2
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:21 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:21 PM
    Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

    Not sure if anyone can offer me some advice? I run a small maintenance / cleaning company employing 4 full time staff. One of whom has been off for the past 3 weeks with a medical (physical) problem and I've been paying him the compulsory sick pay as per my legal obligations. He has the relevant doctors certificate but I've become aware that whilst not working he still plays in a weekend 5-aside football league, goes out for bike rides and visits the pub most evenings. As the sick pay comes out of my own pocket and is having an impact on my own income this is concerning me somewhat. Is there anything I do?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Paul
    Originally posted by Hoblands
    A difficult one.

    In general terms a fit note is usually an acceptable reason to pay sick pay.

    'I have become aware' - may I ask how?

    How long has this employee worked for you? Is this a recurring problem ? i.e Has this employee had lots of short term sickness? Do you have a sickness policy?

    It is difficult because you have no way of knowing why the doctor issued a fit note for such a long period of time.

    Do you have a good relationship with this employee? Would it be appropriate to telephone and see 'how things are going?/Anything I can do to help?' type thing.

    SSP is not a lot of money so unless he has access to other money I find it hard to imagine why anyone would 'fake an illness'. Perhaps he is getting better and trying out physical activities to see if his 'physical condition' is fully healed?

    PS Might be worth posting on the Employment forum:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=141
    • huckster
    • By huckster 4th Feb 18, 3:34 PM
    • 3,045 Posts
    • 1,280 Thanks
    huckster
    • #3
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:34 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:34 PM
    From what I have been told, an employer can ignore a Doctors sick note, if they assess that the employee is fit for work. BUT to be able to ignore the sick note, the employers would need to provide some evidence to support their decision.

    I have seen employers confront employees in a similar situation and the employee has withdrawn the sick note, by declaring that they are now fit for work. Obviously if the illness is hidden e.g mental health an employer would need to be very careful before they ignored a sick note.

    In the employement forum, there are HR law experts who will know more.
    • Hoblands
    • By Hoblands 4th Feb 18, 3:37 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Hoblands
    • #4
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:37 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:37 PM
    Many thanks for replies. The employee has been with me for a little over a year and this the first time he's taken sick leave. I have him as a 'friend' on Facebook so see all of his recent updates and photos (I rarely post on my timeline so suspect he's forgotten I can see what he's up to!)

    After pension, NI and other compulsory benefits are taken in to account I only make circa £100 - £150 per week profit from each staff member so can't afford a sick pay scheme on top of the amount legally required to pay.

    Kind regards
    Paul
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 4th Feb 18, 3:42 PM
    • 11,115 Posts
    • 13,037 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #5
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:42 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Feb 18, 3:42 PM
    Interesting link:

    https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/trouble-work/employer-problems/my-employer-has-warned-me-about-my-level-sickness-absence

    Still think you need to be very careful..........................
    • deannatrois
    • By deannatrois 4th Feb 18, 5:45 PM
    • 5,116 Posts
    • 7,186 Thanks
    deannatrois
    • #6
    • 4th Feb 18, 5:45 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Feb 18, 5:45 PM
    I would have thought, if the employee has worked for such a short time you could dismiss him for any reason. But perhaps it might be worth a short appt with an employment specialist solicitor before doing this.

    A lot depends on why he is off sick, as has been stated. If he is claiming a physical problem and you can see he is playing football, then obviously that is going to call you to question the diagnosis. If stress/depression then possibly not. As has already been mentioned.
    • borkid
    • By borkid 4th Feb 18, 6:24 PM
    • 1,709 Posts
    • 3,358 Thanks
    borkid
    • #7
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:24 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:24 PM
    A difficult one.

    In general terms a fit note is usually an acceptable reason to pay sick pay.

    'I have become aware' - may I ask how?

    How long has this employee worked for you? Is this a recurring problem ? i.e Has this employee had lots of short term sickness? Do you have a sickness policy?

    It is difficult because you have no way of knowing why the doctor issued a fit note for such a long period of time.

    Do you have a good relationship with this employee? Would it be appropriate to telephone and see 'how things are going?/Anything I can do to help?' type thing.

    SSP is not a lot of money so unless he has access to other money I find it hard to imagine why anyone would 'fake an illness'. Perhaps he is getting better and trying out physical activities to see if his 'physical condition' is fully healed?

    PS Might be worth posting on the Employment forum:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=141
    Originally posted by pmlindyloo
    Possibly its all changed but when myOH was incharge of payroll the sick notes had the reason on them.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 4th Feb 18, 6:39 PM
    • 4,560 Posts
    • 4,817 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    • #8
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:39 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Feb 18, 6:39 PM
    A difficult one.

    In general terms a fit note is usually an acceptable reason to pay sick pay.

    It is difficult because you have no way of knowing why the doctor issued a fit note for such a long period of time.
    Originally posted by pmlindyloo
    The fit note will state the nature of the illness. If the employee has been off for 3 weeks and can self-certificate for the first week. The OP hasn't stated how long the fit note is for, so I'm not clear where the 'such a long period of time'. When I worked on ESA we would only accept fit notes for a maximum 3 months at a time until the claimant had been off work for 6 months, so even if the fit note is for 4 weeks it's far from unusual.

    As the OP has legitimate access to show that the employee has been playing sport when he supposedly has a 'physical incapacity' I don't think it would be unreasonable for the OP to ask for an explanation.
    If that isn't forthcoming, or the explanation isn't accepted, the employee has little in the way of comeback if the OP chooses to terminate their employment.
    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 4th Feb 18, 7:35 PM
    • 6,401 Posts
    • 11,539 Thanks
    GlasweJen
    • #9
    • 4th Feb 18, 7:35 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Feb 18, 7:35 PM
    What!!!8217;s the physical illness and does playing football contradict it or could it help the recovery? For example it used to be that you!!!8217;d be told to lie fiat with a sore back but OH was recently told by his GP that he should be exercising his back as much as he can within reason and a game of 5s with the lads would fit the bill, as would cycling.
    Bounts, Quidco, Shop and Scan, Receipt Hog, Costco Cashback, Debit card cashback

    NOT BUYING IT
    (unless it's on offer and can get my loyalty points)
    • Hoblands
    • By Hoblands 4th Feb 18, 8:07 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Hoblands
    Without going in to graphic detail, the reason given on the sick note is for an injury in an intimate area! The reason for the length of time is that the appointment to see a specialist isn't until 19th February (for whatever reason) and then, presumably a new Dr's certificate will be issued pending any operation needed. I'm not disputing that the employee has a problem but a little put out that he seems to be able to do almost any activity apart from working!

    Thanks again for replies. I'll be pursuing this further tomorrow and will post an update...
    • Tigsteroonie
    • By Tigsteroonie 4th Feb 18, 8:19 PM
    • 22,669 Posts
    • 56,531 Thanks
    Tigsteroonie
    Without going in to graphic detail, the reason given on the sick note is for an injury in an intimate area!
    Originally posted by Hoblands
    And he's going out cycling?
    Going to become Mrs Marleyboy for real in 2018

    MSE: many of the benefits of a helpful family, without disadvantages like having to compete for the tv remote

    Proud Parents to an Au-some son
    • venison
    • By venison 4th Feb 18, 9:07 PM
    • 1,615 Posts
    • 1,729 Thanks
    venison
    For my money you have 3 options 1) do nothing 2) ask him to come and see and discuss with him 3) dismiss him as you have a right to as he has worked for you for only 12 months without reason.
    2 would be my option.
    I am a BG on loans,credit cards and benefits I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly". Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 4th Feb 18, 9:28 PM
    • 3,370 Posts
    • 9,255 Thanks
    LilElvis
    Screenshot everything you think is pertinent before you speak to him.
    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 4th Feb 18, 9:36 PM
    • 6,401 Posts
    • 11,539 Thanks
    GlasweJen
    Oh right, a groin injury would rule out most things! Not sure where you stand but I know our HR department would be very interested in getting you in for a chat in these circumstances.
    Bounts, Quidco, Shop and Scan, Receipt Hog, Costco Cashback, Debit card cashback

    NOT BUYING IT
    (unless it's on offer and can get my loyalty points)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Feb 18, 11:23 AM
    • 2,340 Posts
    • 2,194 Thanks
    Comms69
    Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

    Not sure if anyone can offer me some advice? I run a small maintenance / cleaning company employing 4 full time staff. One of whom has been off for the past 3 weeks with a medical (physical) problem and I've been paying him the compulsory sick pay as per my legal obligations. He has the relevant doctors certificate but I've become aware that whilst not working he still plays in a weekend 5-aside football league, goes out for bike rides and visits the pub most evenings. As the sick pay comes out of my own pocket and is having an impact on my own income this is concerning me somewhat. Is there anything I do?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Paul
    Originally posted by Hoblands
    What is the nature of the sickness?


    Being unable to work, does not mean being unable to have a life.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Feb 18, 11:24 AM
    • 2,340 Posts
    • 2,194 Thanks
    Comms69
    I would have thought, if the employee has worked for such a short time you could dismiss him for any reason. But perhaps it might be worth a short appt with an employment specialist solicitor before doing this.

    A lot depends on why he is off sick, as has been stated. If he is claiming a physical problem and you can see he is playing football, then obviously that is going to call you to question the diagnosis. If stress/depression then possibly not. As has already been mentioned.
    Originally posted by deannatrois


    Dismiss with one week's notice - no reason given. Perfectly legal (save the £200+vat fee)
    • parkrunner
    • By parkrunner 5th Feb 18, 1:09 PM
    • 929 Posts
    • 1,403 Thanks
    parkrunner
    Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

    Not sure if anyone can offer me some advice? I run a small maintenance / cleaning company employing 4 full time staff. One of whom has been off for the past 3 weeks with a medical (physical) problem and I've been paying him the compulsory sick pay as per my legal obligations. He has the relevant doctors certificate but I've become aware that whilst not working he still plays in a weekend 5-aside football league, goes out for bike rides and visits the pub most evenings. As the sick pay comes out of my own pocket and is having an impact on my own income this is concerning me somewhat. Is there anything I do?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Paul
    Originally posted by Hoblands
    Challenge him in a nice way saying you notice he's back playing football etc and when can you expect his return to work.
    • missprice
    • By missprice 5th Feb 18, 1:32 PM
    • 3,312 Posts
    • 101,396 Thanks
    missprice
    Possibly its all changed but when myOH was incharge of payroll the sick notes had the reason on them.
    Originally posted by borkid
    Although it's rare, a GP can in fact lie on a fit note about what is wrong with the patient. Depending on many factors, they can put that a physical ailment is the problem, when in fact it's mental health issues.
    63 mortgage payments to go.

    Zero wins 2016 !!!128549;
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Feb 18, 1:53 PM
    • 2,340 Posts
    • 2,194 Thanks
    Comms69
    Challenge him in a nice way saying you notice he's back playing football etc and when can you expect his return to work.
    Originally posted by parkrunner


    Oh is he a professional footballer?
    • parkrunner
    • By parkrunner 5th Feb 18, 3:45 PM
    • 929 Posts
    • 1,403 Thanks
    parkrunner
    Oh is he a professional footballer?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Errr not that I'm aware of.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

163Posts Today

1,833Users online

Martin's Twitter