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  • FIRST POST
    • DreamweaverB
    • By DreamweaverB 2nd Feb 18, 8:37 AM
    • 67Posts
    • 38Thanks
    DreamweaverB
    Returning a radiator CCR - return by normal post?
    • #1
    • 2nd Feb 18, 8:37 AM
    Returning a radiator CCR - return by normal post? 2nd Feb 18 at 8:37 AM
    Following on from the thread titled If a company delivers, are they obliged to collect?.
    Because the goods can't be returned by normal post,
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Does anyone know the legal definition of "normal post"?

    I ordered and had delivered a central heating radiator but have changed my mind about the size and now want a larger one. Similar to the OP in that thread I am happy to pay reasonable return costs and in my case want to order a more expensive radiator from them. However for the following reasons I also want some ammunition in case I have a fight on my hands:
    1. It's been 4 days and counting and the returns dept have still not replied despite chasing by me and their own Customer Services department.
    2. Their T&Cs state non-faulty returns will be subject to a 25% restocking fee which is of course illegal.
    3. Their T&Cs do not state the cost of returning a radiator.

    So the checking question is... can a 30kg 700mm x 1000mm radiator normally be returned by 'post?'
Page 1
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 2nd Feb 18, 8:49 AM
    • 3,620 Posts
    • 6,271 Thanks
    Fosterdog
    • #2
    • 2nd Feb 18, 8:49 AM
    • #2
    • 2nd Feb 18, 8:49 AM
    How did it arrive? Did it need a specialist service for delivery or was it just a courier?

    Who is the retailer? Are their T&Cs relating to their own returns policy rather than your rights under CCRs? They can have both, as long as they give you the information required by law for CCR cancellations they can also have their own additional returns policy that they can attach whatever terms they want to, as long as they abide by CCRs for anyone wishing to cancel under them as well.
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 2nd Feb 18, 10:00 AM
    • 5,841 Posts
    • 5,586 Thanks
    eddddy
    • #3
    • 2nd Feb 18, 10:00 AM
    • #3
    • 2nd Feb 18, 10:00 AM
    Just to make sure... does the company sell to consumers or only to the trade?

    If you ordered it from a company that states that it only does trade sales, by ordering, you probably agreed that you are a trader/business. So consumer protection laws might not apply.
    • bris
    • By bris 2nd Feb 18, 1:02 PM
    • 7,340 Posts
    • 6,343 Thanks
    bris
    • #4
    • 2nd Feb 18, 1:02 PM
    • #4
    • 2nd Feb 18, 1:02 PM
    Whats the company, we can't guess a returns policy to see whether it abides by the CCR's or not.


    In general yes a restocking fee is illegal but there is a point made that needs answered and in general yes it's your responsibility to get the radiator back to them if their T&C's state this.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 2nd Feb 18, 4:01 PM
    • 11,917 Posts
    • 9,197 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #5
    • 2nd Feb 18, 4:01 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Feb 18, 4:01 PM
    I would take it to mean that it can't be sent via standard post with post office/royal mail. The implementing guidance makes reference to furniture and bulky items - which imo gives the impression that it refers to items that can't be sent by standard delivery rather than items that can't be sent at all.

    I don't believe its spelled out anywhere in the legislation though and a radiator is less clear cut than the gravel in the linked example.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • macman
    • By macman 2nd Feb 18, 4:54 PM
    • 41,690 Posts
    • 17,227 Thanks
    macman
    • #6
    • 2nd Feb 18, 4:54 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Feb 18, 4:54 PM
    Parcelforce will accept large parcels up to a 30kg limit, 3m length and depth combined. Of course you can't just stick brown paper and a stamp on it and send by 'standard mail,. Our postie is a muscular chap, but even he would struggle with a 30kg rad. Not to mention the letterbox.
    Last edited by macman; 02-02-2018 at 4:57 PM.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • DreamweaverB
    • By DreamweaverB 3rd Feb 18, 7:24 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    DreamweaverB
    • #7
    • 3rd Feb 18, 7:24 AM
    • #7
    • 3rd Feb 18, 7:24 AM
    How did it arrive? Did it need a specialist service for delivery or was it just a courier?
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    No idea whether a specialist service. It wasn't one of our normal couriers, the van only seemed to contain radiators and was a much bigger van than, for example, our normal Hermes and Royal Mail vans. The website and correspondence doesn't name the courier at any point.

    Are their T&Cs relating to their own returns policy rather than your rights under CCRs?
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    Their T&Cs are their interpretation of the CCR. "Cancellation rights Under the Distance Selling Regulations you have the legal right to cancel your order within seven days" followed by "To exercise your right of cancellation you must give written notice by post, email or fax, giving details of goods ordered." followed by "A re-stocking charge of 25% will be applied to all non-faulty items that wish to be returned."

    Heat and Plumb T&Cs

    So obviously their T&Cs are both out of date and contain illegal and unenforceable terms.

    Just to make sure... does the company sell to consumers or only to the trade?
    Originally posted by eddddy
    To both, all prices are inclusive of VAT and there is a specific section on their site for trade customers (I'm a consumer and ordered via the standard consumer site.)
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 3rd Feb 18, 9:03 AM
    • 15,875 Posts
    • 11,871 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #8
    • 3rd Feb 18, 9:03 AM
    • #8
    • 3rd Feb 18, 9:03 AM
    A little googling before ordering goods online next time?

    https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.rkbathrooms.co.uk

    Eg
    !!!8220;Pioneer bathrooms limited, purity bathrooms limited, with various website and company name derivatives, are all basically the same, with the same address - 9 Dennis Lane.
    Heatandplumb.com ltd was a business that went into liquidation. The directors of this company appears to have bought the domain to trade on previous good reviews.
    I am in the process of building up a profile on this company and everyone that works there, to present to the relevant authorities. My own experience has been an appalling one with a damaged item delivered some 4 weeks ago and the refusal of a refund until it's picked up, but like others have said, they don't honour!!!8221;



    *see also Pegasus kitchens and bathrooms limited

    prizma windows limited in Middlesex
    https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/people/6026113-jeetendra-jadavji-halai
    https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/people/14808858-mr-jadavji-halai
    Last edited by hollydays; 03-02-2018 at 9:43 AM.
    • DreamweaverB
    • By DreamweaverB 5th Feb 18, 11:53 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    DreamweaverB
    • #9
    • 5th Feb 18, 11:53 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Feb 18, 11:53 AM
    Parcelforce will accept large parcels up to a 30kg limit, 3m length and depth combined.
    Originally posted by macman
    Thanks, I have discovered the radiator is well over 30kg and the Parcelforce web site confirms this is too heavy for them to handle.

    Below is the supplier's complete Cancellation/Returns T&Cs which do not state the cost of returning goods as they should to abide by the CCR.

    13. Cancellation rights

    13.1 - Under the Distance Selling Regulations you have the legal right to cancel your order within seven days of receipt of your goods (with the exception of any made to order items). You do not need to give us any reason for cancelling your contract. However, you will need to notify us in writing, email or fax if you wish to cancel your contract.
    13.2 - You cannot cancel your contract if you have taken any audio or video recording or computer software out of the sealed package in which it was delivered to you.
    13.3 - If you have received the goods before you cancel your contract then [unless, under clause 13.2, for which you do not have a right to cancel] you must send the goods back to the address supplied by us at your own cost and risk. It is recommended you take out insurance on the goods against damage or loss.
    13.4 - If you cancel your contract but we have already processed the goods for delivery you must not unpack the goods when they are received by you and you must send the goods back to the address supplied by us at your own cost and risk as soon as possible. It is recommended you take out insurance on the goods against damage or loss.
    13.5 - Once you have notified us in writing, email or fax that you wish to return your goods, you can do it providing you pay the cost of returning them. You are highly recommended to insure the goods which you are returning. Once your goods have been received in a re-saleable condition we will process your refund the next working day. Please note, it can take at least 5 working days for the refund to show in your account.
    13.6 - You will be re-credited for the costs incurred in returning faulty goods, or goods that do not comply with what was ordered.

    14. Returns - [Download Returns Form]

    14.1 - To exercise your right of cancellation you must give written notice by post, email or fax, giving details of goods ordered.
    14.2 - All non-faulty items will incur a collection charge, dependant on the size and weight of the item. This charge must be paid prior to any collection being arranged.
    14.3 - A re-stocking charge of 25% will be applied to all non-faulty items that wish to be returned.
    14.4 - All goods returned to us must be in perfect condition with the product packaging undamaged. You have a statutory duty to restore those goods to us and, in the meantime, to keep them and take reasonable care of them. As such it is recommended you take out insurance on the goods against damage or loss.
    14.5 - In the unlikely event that the item we supplied to you is faulty, we will meet the cost of the return, as long as the fault is acknowledged within 30 working days (see 10.9). We reserve the right to nominate a collection company for this.
    14.6 - We will not accept any returns after 14 days from the date of delivery.
    Last edited by DreamweaverB; 05-02-2018 at 7:43 PM. Reason: link to T&Cs added
    • usefulmale
    • By usefulmale 5th Feb 18, 5:52 PM
    • 2,362 Posts
    • 4,358 Thanks
    usefulmale
    Below is the supplier's complete Cancellation/Returns T&Cs which do not state the cost of returning goods as they should to abide by the CCR.
    Originally posted by DreamweaverB
    How can the supplier state the cost of returning everything they sell?

    I ordered and had delivered a central heating radiator but have changed my mind about the size and now want a larger one. Similar to the OP in that thread I am happy to pay reasonable return costs and in my case want to order a more expensive radiator from them
    Originally posted by DreamweaverB
    Why don't you phone the company to order the radiator you do want, and ask, very nicely, if the courier can collect the one you ordered in error when they deliver your new one?
    Last edited by usefulmale; 05-02-2018 at 5:56 PM.
    Originally Posted by MSE Forum Team
    We’ve had to remove your signature because what you wrote was true and sensible and there's no room for that here.
    • DreamweaverB
    • By DreamweaverB 5th Feb 18, 7:42 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    DreamweaverB
    How can the supplier state the cost of returning everything they sell?
    Originally posted by usefulmale
    Because the law says they have to if they want the customer to pay for returns that cannot be posted?

    The Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013


    The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013
    PART 2 - Information requirements
    CHAPTER 1 - Provision of information

    13.—(5) If the trader has not complied with paragraph (1) in respect of paragraph (g), (h) or (m) of Schedule 2, the consumer is not to bear the charges or costs referred to in those paragraphs.

    PART 3 - Right to cancel

    35.—(5) The consumer must bear the direct cost of returning goods under paragraph (2), unless—

    (b)the trader failed to provide the consumer with the information about the consumer bearing those costs, required by paragraph (m) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

    SCHEDULE 2 - Information relating to distance and off-premises contracts

    (m)where applicable, that the consumer will have to bear the cost of returning the goods in case of cancellation and, for distance contracts, if the goods, by their nature, cannot normally be returned by post, the cost of returning the goods;

    Why don't you phone the company to order the radiator you do want, and ask, very nicely, if the courier can collect the one you ordered in error when they deliver your new one?
    Originally posted by usefulmale
    I did ask them very nicely by email (twice) to do exactly that, their Returns dept still haven't responded. The only responses are from customer services saying the Returns Dept deal with this...
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