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  • FIRST POST
    • Wolfy6
    • By Wolfy6 12th Jan 18, 5:16 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Wolfy6
    Private PCN received, advice needed
    • #1
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:16 PM
    Private PCN received, advice needed 12th Jan 18 at 5:16 PM
    Hello everyone,

    I've had a look through the NEWBIES guide but I still have a couple of questions, hope this is ok.

    The registered keeper of the vehicle got a PCN through the post from NPS for parking between 17:44 and 17:59 without paying. The car park in question is next to a new block of flats that are still being built.

    We're about to go to the car park again and have a look to see if there are any clear signs that it is a pay and display car park since it is in a poorly lit area.

    My questions are as follows:

    1. If, say, there is a giant, well-lit sign that it is a pay and display car park with all the required info on it, can we still appeal on grounds that it is a first offence/it was only for 15 minutes to pick someone up and £60 (£100 in full) is a ridiculous amount?

    2. Are there any other grounds on which to appeal this or are we better off by just paying it instead of wasting time and appealing?

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Wolfy6; 12-01-2018 at 5:29 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,499 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    1) no , none of those grounds are valid for any appeal , especially the charge cost as that was lost 2.5 years ago in the BEAVIS case

    2) yes and no , all detailed in that template of the NEWBIES sticky thread , although nobody here would recommend you pay

    appeal points are usually as follows

    NO LANDOWNER CONTRACT
    NO CONTRACT TO PARK
    FORBIDDING SIGNAGE
    POOR AND INADEQUATE SIGNAGE
    any CoP failures
    any NTK failures
    any POFA2012 failures
    GRACE PERIODS
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    • 34,179 Posts
    • 18,125 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:26 PM
    (Forget mitigating circumstances/first offence etc - these companies aren't interested)

    Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving.

    You need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving
    • Wolfy6
    • By Wolfy6 12th Jan 18, 5:39 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Wolfy6
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:39 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:39 PM
    (Forget mitigating circumstances/first offence etc - these companies aren't interested)

    Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving.

    You need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving
    Originally posted by Quentin
    I did read the two stickied posts before posting, sorry if I asked something that's already in there but I didn't see anything mentioned about what grounds you can appeal on except the ones in the template (the ones about signage and retail/hospital parking. Thank you for the heads up, I've edited my post.

    Thank you for the replies, I need to go have a look at their signage.

    What are the "no landowner contract" and "no contract to park" appeal points? I have already checked the others (apart from signage) and they don't apply in this case.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jan 18, 5:47 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,499 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:47 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Jan 18, 5:47 PM
    I think you are wrong

    GRACE PERIODS before and after a parking event are always valid if the overstay is under 20 minutes

    the popla appeal points in post #3 are typical appeal points , especially the NO LANDOWNER CONTRACT , because unless these companies own the land (they rarely do) they need a valid contract in place that traces back to the actual landowner

    I do not believe you have seen this valid contract as they rarely show it , especially not until they are in court (they claim its confidential)

    the signage must have clear terms of the parking contract entered into by the victim , so if there was no contract to park then that is another appeal point

    clearly the signage is a valid appeal point (it almost always is)

    I doubt that it was a paying car park, it probably needed permits to park and so the signage was probably forbidding signage , so the grace period point would apply (park , read signs , realise you cannot park there , depart)

    I also find it hard to believe that NPS complied with POFA2012, to hold a keeper liable , plus I doubt they met all the points !!!

    not sure how you can be so confident that this PPC have followed each and every one of the points I outlined , it is rare for a PPC to have full compliance in all areas

    I doubt that they have met all the points in the BPA CoP

    PE did when they beat BEAVIS , but I doubt NPS have done so
    Last edited by Redx; 12-01-2018 at 5:56 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Wolfy6
    • By Wolfy6 12th Jan 18, 6:51 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Wolfy6
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 18, 6:51 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Jan 18, 6:51 PM
    I think you are wrong

    GRACE PERIODS before and after a parking event are always valid if the overstay is under 20 minutes

    the popla appeal points in post #3 are typical appeal points , especially the NO LANDOWNER CONTRACT , because unless these companies own the land (they rarely do) they need a valid contract in place that traces back to the actual landowner

    I do not believe you have seen this valid contract as they rarely show it , especially not until they are in court (they claim its confidential)

    the signage must have clear terms of the parking contract entered into by the victim , so if there was no contract to park then that is another appeal point

    clearly the signage is a valid appeal point (it almost always is)

    I doubt that it was a paying car park, it probably needed permits to park and so the signage was probably forbidding signage , so the grace period point would apply (park , read signs , realise you cannot park there , depart)

    I also find it hard to believe that NPS complied with POFA2012, to hold a keeper liable , plus I doubt they met all the points !!!

    not sure how you can be so confident that this PPC have followed each and every one of the points I outlined , it is rare for a PPC to have full compliance in all areas

    I doubt that they have met all the points in the BPA CoP

    PE did when they beat BEAVIS , but I doubt NPS have done so
    Originally posted by Redx
    I have just been to the car park and took pictures of their signs. I've attached photographs with the signs but I can't tell if they are fully compliant or not. Sorry for the potato quality, esp. for the one with the terms and conditions but I was trying to show how it's really difficult to make out in the dark.

    Would the grace period still apply even though the BPA CoP states a minimum of 10 minutes? Would they just not say that this has been 15 minutes so that does not apply?

    I've had another read through the BPA CoP and the POFA2012 and I can't find any obvious point where they did not comply. However, I have 0 experience with these kinds of things, so I'm not 100% sure that they are compliant. Would it be useful if I uploaded a copy of the PCN? Or do I just go on with my initial appeal and focus on these things for the POPLA appeal?

    On a slightly unrelated note, I'm sure this is one of the things they rely on, that people won't have the time or willpower or knowledge to read everything in order for them to appeal.

    Sorry about all the questions but I'm trying to get to grips with the whole thing. And I really do appreciate your help!

    It's not letting me attach the photos since I'm a new user, but I've uploaded them on imgur and the link ends in /a/vnFr0 (hope this isn't breaking any rules).
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jan 18, 7:01 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,499 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 18, 7:01 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Jan 18, 7:01 PM
    of course they would say that 15 minutes exceeds the BPA CoP , so if the vehicle was prevented from parking or leaving this would add to the time of the stay

    saying its a first "offence" wont wash though

    nor will saying the driver was waiting for a passenger

    the typical waiting time is usually 10 minutes or less

    but the keeper can still put them to strict proof of this grace period time as some sites let you have 20 or 30 minutes for example (or even up to one hour)

    you focus on these items in the popla appeal, the newbies sticky thread tells you this and suggests a template in blue text for the initial appeal, which is CANCEL OR ISSUE A POPLA CODE

    surely you read this ?

    you are correct that they rely on people just caving in and paying , usually due to a lack of knowledge about this topic , hence the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread

    as you said however , you do not know about this topic and so you query everything and accept nothing at face value (or what their response might be)

    if you do not query something with popla , it wont be considered , hence why you throw everything in and make it as hard as possible for the PPC

    this is why you ASSUME that all their compliance issues have failed and you query each and every issue , including signage , its is for them to prove their case on each and every point , you only have to win on a single point

    ITS EITHER PAY , OR APPEAL , your choice

    clearly you have some issue about paying or you would not be here asking about appealing (and the initial appeal is already written for you)

    you should also be checking the timeline by looking at the postmark on the pcn and the date the pcn was issued, then check if it came in the correct time period (by day 15 for an NTK if no windscreen ticket was issued)

    and you check the wording on the NTK meets schedule 4 of the POFA2012

    if it fails either or both , then it fails POFA2012 and the keeper is not liable
    Last edited by Redx; 12-01-2018 at 7:12 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Jan 18, 7:18 PM
    • 5,200 Posts
    • 3,664 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 12th Jan 18, 7:18 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Jan 18, 7:18 PM
    Or do I just go on with my initial appeal and focus on these things for the POPLA appeal?
    Originally posted by Wolfy6
    That's exactly what you do.

    Just send the appropriate template appeal without change.


    I am though, interested in further details of:
    the potato quality
    Originally posted by Wolfy6
    .
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Jan 18, 7:22 PM
    • 5,200 Posts
    • 3,664 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 12th Jan 18, 7:22 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Jan 18, 7:22 PM
    https://imgur.com/a/vnFr0
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jan 18, 7:33 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,499 Thanks
    Redx
    we are going to need a daylight photo of that sign , or one with a flash so we can read the terms and conditions that apply for a driver to park there

    it says pay to park , so clearly some form of payment was required , or the driver should have left in 10 minutes or less

    so the driver should have bought a parking ticket whilst waiting for the passenger , and didnt pay at all , hence the pcn

    in theory the driver has failed the parking contract and so is liable for the £100 stated on the sign

    the fact the signage is poorly lit is one point in any appeal, because the argument would be that the driver did not see the sign and did not know that they had to pay

    but if the PPC failed on any legal point , then the keeper is not liable

    also cannot see the pcn or the dates of when it was issued , or posted , or postmarked , or received
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Wolfy6
    • By Wolfy6 12th Jan 18, 8:10 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Wolfy6
    Thank you everyone for the help. I'll use the template for an initial appeal and take it from there.

    The PCN was issued 7 dates after the contravention so they're withing the 14 days. !!!!!!!s were quick.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jan 18, 8:32 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,499 Thanks
    Redx
    Thank you everyone for the help. I'll use the template for an initial appeal and take it from there.

    The PCN was issued 7 dates after the contravention so they're withing the 14 days. !!!!!!!s were quick.
    Originally posted by Wolfy6
    after over 5 years of failing POFA2012, these companies are starting to realise they need to comply with it if they want to drive their profits up

    it isnt hard for them to do a lookup on the dvla database and send out a template letter , adapted for each issue they spot , especially if they have to do it all within 12 days for it to arrive on time
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 12th Jan 18, 8:40 PM
    • 3,957 Posts
    • 5,577 Thanks
    Half_way
    Under 10 minutes, and they should not have pursued this, (grace period) they have had/have no just cause in accessing and processing your personal data.
    As its a residential site, this could very well be a self ticketing operation where a noris cole, appointed by a management company tickets cars for the PPC in return for a commission.
    the management company is jointly liable for the actions of its agents.
    the management company could be liable for any DPA breach
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Wolfy6
    • By Wolfy6 12th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Wolfy6
    One last question: Do I include the bit that says "Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause" if they have already requested the details from the DVLA?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Jan 18, 8:45 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,499 Thanks
    Redx
    change it to

    Should you have obtained

    because they have already done it (as you say)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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