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  • FIRST POST
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 10th Jan 18, 12:31 AM
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    cloud_dog
    Finally moving the SIPP
    • #1
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:31 AM
    Finally moving the SIPP 10th Jan 18 at 12:31 AM
    Ok, so after a lot of research and way too much procrastinating, I have finally decided on the course of action for the OH SIPP, currently with HL and invested in OIECs.

    I had tried long and hard to convince myself to transfer it to X-O (Jarvis) SIPP but, even though I have my ISA with them I couldn't quite convince myself to move it there (even though I would have saved having to pay any SIPP annual charges).

    I have probably mentioned on other threads that I was looking to go down the route of non-OIEC investments.

    I have opened a SIPP with AJ Bell/YouInvest. They will also reimburse any transfer costs (up to £500), which is nice and takes that as a consideration out of the equation.

    As touched on above currently the money is invested in OIECs but it will be re-invested in ITs. My dilemma is trying to work out whether to sell all the OIECs and transfer as cash or transfer as OIECs and sell/re-buy in ITs as appropriate.

    If I transfer as cash then I would imagine the transfer time will be significantly quicker than as OIECs; Youinvest indicate approximately 2 weeks to transfer cash. But, I would be out of the market. If I transfer as OIECs then I remain 'in the market' but this (apparently) can take up to 2 months (6 to 8 weeks).

    Am hedging towards selling and transferring as cash.

    Anyone else done a HL to YouInvest SIPP transfer recently, any comments on time scales etc?
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
Page 1
    • EdSwippet
    • By EdSwippet 10th Jan 18, 10:06 AM
    • 652 Posts
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    EdSwippet
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:06 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:06 AM
    Personally I always transfer holdings intact and never as cash. Over the years I have moved SIPP three or four times, and none has completed inside two months, with the record being eleven months. But with no time 'out of the market', and not currently either drawing or contributing, it was much easier to stay relaxed about the delays. In practice I may have come out slightly ahead, since for at least part of the most egregious slowdown neither SIPP provider was applying their charges.
    • IanSt
    • By IanSt 10th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    • 209 Posts
    • 160 Thanks
    IanSt
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 11:58 AM
    If it were the SIPP and funds that I own then I'd definitely transfer the funds rather than cash.

    It might never happen, but I'd be gutted if there was a dip just as they were being sold and then the market recovered before I got back into my desired funds.

    The only reason I might decide to transfer in cash was if the SIPP was relatively low value and there was some substantial savings to be made by not having to sell on YouInvest.
    • Sue58
    • By Sue58 10th Jan 18, 4:14 PM
    • 100 Posts
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    Sue58
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:14 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:14 PM
    Ok, so after a lot of research and way too much procrastinating, I have finally decided on the course of action for the OH SIPP, currently with HL and invested in OIECs.

    I had tried long and hard to convince myself to transfer it to X-O (Jarvis) SIPP but, even though I have my ISA with them I couldn't quite convince myself to move it there (even though I would have saved having to pay any SIPP annual charges).

    I have probably mentioned on other threads that I was looking to go down the route of non-OIEC investments.

    I have opened a SIPP with AJ Bell/YouInvest. They will also reimburse any transfer costs (up to £500), which is nice and takes that as a consideration out of the equation.

    As touched on above currently the money is invested in OIECs but it will be re-invested in ITs. My dilemma is trying to work out whether to sell all the OIECs and transfer as cash or transfer as OIECs and sell/re-buy in ITs as appropriate.

    If I transfer as cash then I would imagine the transfer time will be significantly quicker than as OIECs; Youinvest indicate approximately 2 weeks to transfer cash. But, I would be out of the market. If I transfer as OIECs then I remain 'in the market' but this (apparently) can take up to 2 months (6 to 8 weeks).

    Am hedging towards selling and transferring as cash.

    Anyone else done a HL to YouInvest SIPP transfer recently, any comments on time scales etc?
    Originally posted by cloud_dog
    If you are only investing in IT's in the new SIPP then why not Fidelity? They have a capped charge of only £45 per annum and no other charges for drawdown etc.
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 10th Jan 18, 4:28 PM
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    cloud_dog
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:28 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 4:28 PM
    If you are only investing in IT's in the new SIPP then why not Fidelity? They have a capped charge of only £45 per annum and no other charges for drawdown etc.
    Originally posted by Sue58
    Initially, they had a very limited list of ITs available. I think this has improved since the new platform but the feedback on the new platform has been pretty dire.

    I think what really sold me on YouInvest was the ease of access to, and clarity of information. As an example they provide an interactive web page to check what ITs (or ETFs) are available via regular investing (as opposed to direct purchase). Everything just seemed more easily accessible. I felt 'comfortable' with them

    The final nail in the X-O coffin was how they have implemented the latest MiFID II regulations; when you want to buy an IT you need to ring them to confirm your understanding. I'm sure they will sort it out eventually but, I've been dragging this out for far too long now.
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • Sue58
    • By Sue58 10th Jan 18, 9:53 PM
    • 100 Posts
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    Sue58
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:53 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:53 PM
    Initially, they had a very limited list of ITs available. I think this has improved since the new platform but the feedback on the new platform has been pretty dire.

    I think what really sold me on YouInvest was the ease of access to, and clarity of information. As an example they provide an interactive web page to check what ITs (or ETFs) are available via regular investing (as opposed to direct purchase). Everything just seemed more easily accessible. I felt 'comfortable' with them

    The final nail in the X-O coffin was how they have implemented the latest MiFID II regulations; when you want to buy an IT you need to ring them to confirm your understanding. I'm sure they will sort it out eventually but, I've been dragging this out for far too long now.
    Originally posted by cloud_dog
    OK, fair enough but out of interest how much more will it cost you with AJBell including drawdown charges?
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 11th Jan 18, 12:45 AM
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    cloud_dog
    • #7
    • 11th Jan 18, 12:45 AM
    • #7
    • 11th Jan 18, 12:45 AM
    OK, fair enough but out of interest how much more will it cost you with AJBell including drawdown charges?
    Originally posted by Sue58
    Hi, the annual cost during the growth phase will be a max of £100pa (max £25 per quarter). No charges on holding cash.

    Drawdown is another question for another day (year) but their charges web page shows:
    • One-off payment of a tax free lump sum, income payment, uncrystallised funds pension lump sum or small lump sum... £25
    • Regular income drawdown payments or regular uncrystallised funds pension lump sum payments... £100 pa
    • Crystallised funds where no income is paid... No charge
    • Purchase an annuity... £150
    • Review of capped drawdown (includes triennial/annual reviews and reviews when additional funds are moved into drawdown)... £75

    It is likely to be the first one we would utilise (£25); if the pot is left with YouInvest.

    The idea will be to pay as much in to the SIPP over the coming years (decades; plural just), and then withdraw the maximum amount, up to the personal income tax allowance.

    As the OH will not have significant pension earnings before SP (67), poss £1.2kpa from 60. We will commence drawdown (one way or another) of the SIPP money, making full use of personal tax allowance. The money will be deposited in to S&S ISA.

    As yet we do not have a definitive retirement schedule (ages). I will probably continue to work until 65 (company DB pension kicks in) but I'd like the OH to continue to work until 60. The idea then is to withdraw as much as possible from the SIPP over 7 years (from age 60 to 67). With her small pension and SP we will then still be in a position to transfer part of her personal income tax allowance to me (every little helps). Her ISA(s) will provide additional income (as will mine).

    At some point in the comings years I need to check if it would be more advantageous to do this as an uncrystallised or crystallised withdrawal/drawdown.
    Last edited by cloud_dog; 11-01-2018 at 12:50 AM.
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • pip895
    • By pip895 11th Jan 18, 7:00 AM
    • 494 Posts
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    pip895
    • #8
    • 11th Jan 18, 7:00 AM
    • #8
    • 11th Jan 18, 7:00 AM
    If you are transfering to IT's HLs charges are caped at £200 for a SIPP and only £45 for an ISA. Why move? You could potentially loose far more than this in the transfer. Also will you move again when the platform you move to ups its charges?
    Last edited by pip895; 11-01-2018 at 7:14 AM.
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 11th Jan 18, 9:53 AM
    • 3,343 Posts
    • 1,893 Thanks
    cloud_dog
    • #9
    • 11th Jan 18, 9:53 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Jan 18, 9:53 AM
    Hi

    If you are transfering to IT's HLs charges are caped at £200 for a SIPP
    Originally posted by pip895
    Yes, but that is still 100% more. Always manage your costs.
    and only £45 for an ISA.
    Originally posted by pip895
    I've never paid a platform fee for any of our ISAs.

    Why move? You could potentially loose far more than this in the transfer.
    Originally posted by pip895
    As mentioned, YouInvest (at the moment) will reimburse any transfer costs.

    Also will you move again when the platform you move to ups its charges?
    Originally posted by pip895
    Possibly (always manage your costs). Have YouInvest confirmed any price increases that are not currently in their charging structure? If I may borrow your crystal ball and check who is going to then that would be very helpful

    I am happy with the choice, a little annoyed I didn't go back over the Fidelity changes, as they may very well have been a contender but, I had discounted them previously due to their lack of IT choices.
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • EdSwippet
    • By EdSwippet 11th Jan 18, 10:21 AM
    • 652 Posts
    • 618 Thanks
    EdSwippet
    Possibly (always manage your costs). Have YouInvest confirmed any price increases that are not currently in their charging structure?
    Originally posted by cloud_dog
    This isn't intended to change your mind, and you probably remember all this anyway, but just a note here -- YouInvest is so far the only platform that has unilaterally raised charges without also offering a limited-time free transfer away. Not once, but twice. For some customers their revised charges were multiples of the old fees.

    Right now, YouInvest's transfer out charges are only slightly higher than HL's, so your leap from HL to YouInvest doesn't put in a much worse position than currently when it comes to transferring elsewhere if you need to move again. However, there aren't many platforms these days that cover transfer out charges for you (possible clue there under the 'no free lunch' meme?!).
    • Sue58
    • By Sue58 11th Jan 18, 10:36 AM
    • 100 Posts
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    Sue58
    This isn't intended to change your mind, and you probably remember all this anyway, but just a note here -- YouInvest is so far the only platform that has unilaterally raised charges without also offering a limited-time free transfer away. Not once, but twice. For some customers their revised charges were multiples of the old fees.

    Right now, YouInvest's transfer out charges are only slightly higher than HL's, so your leap from HL to YouInvest doesn't put in a much worse position than currently when it comes to transferring elsewhere if you need to move again. However, there aren't many platforms these days that cover transfer out charges for you (possible clue there under the 'no free lunch' meme?!).
    Originally posted by EdSwippet
    Yet again, another reason to go for Fidelity with IT's only in a SIPP because there are also no transfer out charges as well as no drawdown charges. The only platform charge is capped at £45 per annum to hold IT's in a SIPP.
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 11th Jan 18, 10:49 AM
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    cloud_dog
    This isn't intended to change your mind, and you probably remember all this anyway, but just a note here -- YouInvest is so far the only platform that has unilaterally raised charges without also offering a limited-time free transfer away. Not once, but twice.
    Originally posted by EdSwippet
    I think I had overlooked this. A lot of platforms changed and subsequently revised pricing structures in the years since RDR. III, X-O are two I can recollect (certainly for SIPPS).

    I can't lie, it is something to ponder on. I don't want to be continually monitoring and switching (although the monitoring thing is pretty much in my blood).

    From what I have read YouInvest do not have an 'early' closure/transfer fee, i.e. within 12 months, over and above their transfer out fee (in cash of £75).
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 11th Jan 18, 10:51 AM
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    cloud_dog
    Yet again, another reason to go for Fidelity with IT's only in a SIPP because there are also no transfer out charges as well as no drawdown charges. The only platform charge is capped at £45 per annum to hold IT's in a SIPP.
    Originally posted by Sue58
    I know, I know, I know....

    They had rubbish/very reduced IT options previously. I had a look at their site last night and they seem to pretty much cover everything I would want/need (certainly no worse than YouInvest).
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 11th Jan 18, 10:58 AM
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    cloud_dog
    Hi

    Yet again, another reason to go for Fidelity with IT's ...
    Originally posted by Sue58
    Do you have a SIPP with Fidelity? If you do are you able to see if all of the available ITs can be purchased via their regular investment option?

    A number of platforms (YouInvest etc) only allow a subset of ITs to be purchased via the RI option as opposed to virtually the full list directly.
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • Sue58
    • By Sue58 11th Jan 18, 11:28 AM
    • 100 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    Sue58
    Hi



    Do you have a SIPP with Fidelity? If you do are you able to see if all of the available ITs can be purchased via their regular investment option?

    A number of platforms (YouInvest etc) only allow a subset of ITs to be purchased via the RI option as opposed to virtually the full list directly.
    Originally posted by cloud_dog
    No, I don't at the moment but I am currently in the process of moving my personal pension fund to Fidelity because it has all the IT's that I require.

    As far as I know and as I understand it, you can still make regular contributions into your SIPP as a regular investment option and this can be paid into the SIPP cash account and then transferred into whichever IT you want. Alternatively, I think you can set this up to spread the RI over all the IT's you hold in your SIPP.

    Best to check this out for yourself so maybe give them a call.
    • redux
    • By redux 11th Jan 18, 1:50 PM
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    redux
    Reading this thread is well-timed for me.

    I'm considering merging 2 SIPPs, either from one to the other or both to a third.

    Some have cashback offers towards transfer in costs, but I didn't know of AJBell's, so thanks for that.

    Fidelity don't currently support all the IT's I might transfer, though there are rumours of further extensions, but they can't say when.

    So in Fidelity I have a dilemma of either making some alternate choices, or I could change which overall holdings are in which wrappers, i.e. sell some Fidelity ITs in an ISA, rebuy them in a SIPP, replace some current SIPP holdings with the same ones on the manager's own saving scheme ...

    That would add up some dealing charges, which would be saved back on future annual charges, but it might be frustrating if Fidelity extended its range not long later.

    AJBell's transfer cashback could save a bit against that by being able to bring in all and less rearranging

    Some more thought and looking at details ...
    Last edited by redux; 11-01-2018 at 1:58 PM.
    • Sue58
    • By Sue58 11th Jan 18, 2:23 PM
    • 100 Posts
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    Sue58

    I've never paid a platform fee for any of our ISAs..
    Originally posted by cloud_dog
    Is that because you are with iWeb? If so, what sort of performance analysis do they offer on each fund/IT? Is it annualised returns or just the total return or loss on each fund/IT?
    • cloud_dog
    • By cloud_dog 11th Jan 18, 2:44 PM
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    cloud_dog
    Is that because you are with iWeb? If so, what sort of performance analysis do they offer on each fund/IT? Is it annualised returns or just the total return or loss on each fund/IT?
    Originally posted by Sue58
    We've used or are with TD Direct, X-O, and iWeb.

    Also, other than the current HL SIPP OIEC holdings I don't invest in OIECs, so that is the other reason for no annual platform charges.

    For research I use many sites...Trustnet, Morning Star, III, etc.
    Personal Responsibility - Sad but True

    Sometimes.... I am like a dog with a bone
    • Sue58
    • By Sue58 11th Jan 18, 2:57 PM
    • 100 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    Sue58
    Fidelity don't currently support all the IT's I might transfer, though there are rumours of further extensions, but they can't say when.

    So in Fidelity I have a dilemma of either making some alternate choices, or I could change which overall holdings are in which wrappers, i.e. sell some Fidelity ITs in an ISA, rebuy them in a SIPP, replace some current SIPP holdings with the same ones on the manager's own saving scheme ...

    That would add up some dealing charges, which would be saved back on future annual charges, but it might be frustrating if Fidelity extended its range not long later.
    Originally posted by redux
    When I called Fidelity about a particular IT that is not listed with them at the moment I was informed that when the website is fully completed they would be offering even more IT's including the one I enquired about so I suppose it's wait and see if this happens sometime soon!
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 11th Jan 18, 7:25 PM
    • 56,725 Posts
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    Thrugelmir

    The final nail in the X-O coffin was how they have implemented the latest MiFID II regulations; when you want to buy an IT you need to ring them to confirm your understanding. I'm sure they will sort it out eventually but, I've been dragging this out for far too long now.
    Originally posted by cloud_dog
    Interesting. How are other broking platforms managing this requirement then? As one assumes there's some regulatory checking/verification required.

    P.S. In my years of dealing with x-o / Jarvis. Never had an issue speaking to somebody promptly. Likewise unlike larger organisations service is both professional and efficient.
    “Opportunities come infrequently. When it rains gold, put out the bucket, not the thimble”
    ― Warren Buffett
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