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  • FIRST POST
    • Rambles2814
    • By Rambles2814 9th Jan 18, 11:50 PM
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    Rambles2814
    Advice about Enhanced DBS, Univeristy and Social Work
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 11:50 PM
    Advice about Enhanced DBS, Univeristy and Social Work 9th Jan 18 at 11:50 PM
    Hello,

    I'm seeking advise. I got some conditional offers for a BA Social Work course but I've been very very stupid with my disicisons lately and I've managed to get a caution for fraud. I mistakenly used a friend's card believing it was my own (we have the same bank and I didn't check name just used contactless). Police have given me a caution. Would I still get in to do my BA Social Work course or would they refuse me?

    Thanks
Page 1
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 10th Jan 18, 12:46 AM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:46 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:46 AM
    Hello,

    I'm seeking advise. I got some conditional offers for a BA Social Work course but I've been very very stupid with my disicisons lately and I've managed to get a caution for fraud. I mistakenly used a friend's card believing it was my own (we have the same bank and I didn't check name just used contactless). Police have given me a caution. Would I still get in to do my BA Social Work course or would they refuse me?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Rambles2814
    The caution will come up on an Enhanced DBS check.

    Whether or not the university will still want to offer you a place is up to them.

    It might be a good idea to come up with a better explanation than you have posted here as there is clearly more to this caution that a one-off accidental use of a friend's debit card.

    An honest and sincere explanation will be so much better than trying to be flippant and claiming it was just a simple mistake.

    I suspect that you think I am being harsh but there is definitely more to this than what you have posted here.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 10th Jan 18, 12:51 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:51 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:51 AM
    I don't think anyone can say for certain, so I'd ask, but ...

    it sounds like there's more to this than you're saying. I can't imagine a situation where you mistakenly use someone else's card and end up with the police involved - surely when you find out you go "oh no this is so embarrassing, here's what I accidentally spent, I'll make sure I don't do THAT again."

    And if you'd done that, I struggle to believe that the police would waste time on even a caution.

    great minds ... cross posted!
    Still knitting!
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    • nimbo
    • By nimbo 10th Jan 18, 7:31 AM
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    nimbo
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 7:31 AM
    • #4
    • 10th Jan 18, 7:31 AM
    When I was applying all applicants were advised that they would be required to complete a dbs by x date to get them back for the start of term / way before any placements.

    They advised anyone with a criminal record to apply earlier as they would convene a panel of interviewers for job roles from organisations where they may consider you doing placements. These people would them look at the criminal convictions and honestly state if they would potentially employ you as a social worker. My uni had the opinion there was little point of you getting the degree if you wouldn’t then be employed as a social worker. Many people apply as mature students who may have once in their teens done something a bit silly and then never again so it wouldn’t stop them getting a job. However if a person has regularly been involved in criminal activity it would be viewed differently.

    I don’t know what would be thought of a caution for fraud. My biggest worry would be how very recent it was. When I get police checks back for people old cautions are usually disregarded if they are a one off (and not for violent offences or for issues of a sexual nature or anything against a child etc). But anything recent always rings an alarm bell for me. I need to be clear and say I am not on interview panels - but hopefully the places you have interviewed for will have a similar approach to put your mid at ease.

    It does sound as if there is more to that story - and that would be a concern as one of the expectations of a sw is not to behave in a manner to bring the name into disrepute. How did you have their card? Why did you have it? How did this then get you a caution?

    I’m not expecting you answer those questions on a public forum. But if I’d spent 5 on my sisters card I’d have given it back and apologised. ( but I’ve never been in the position where I could have done that) if they’d given you permission I don’t imagine you could have been done for fraud. Although I am now re thinking ever buying my partner his lunch with his own card now... it sounds more sisnister then you have described it as being. For a dbs an employer/ uni will only see the caution - so the title and the Act it comes under. These sometimes sound very scary and will often need googling to actually be understood.

    Stashbuster - 2014 98/100 - 2015 175/200 - 2016 501 / 500 2017 - 200 / 500 2018 3 / 500
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
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    Comms69
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 18, 9:56 AM
    Hello,

    I'm seeking advise. I got some conditional offers for a BA Social Work course but I've been very very stupid with my disicisons lately and I've managed to get a caution for fraud. I mistakenly used a friend's card believing it was my own (we have the same bank and I didn't check name just used contactless). Police have given me a caution. Would I still get in to do my BA Social Work course or would they refuse me?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Rambles2814


    This doesn't make sense. You were presumably arrested for fraud, provided a free solicitor, took advice and and advised to refuse the caution.


    On the basis of what you say there is no criminality (no mens rea - google it)


    Which is why I, along with others, cant advice accurately. What you say doesn't ring true.
    Last edited by Comms69; 10-01-2018 at 10:07 AM.
    • Rambles2814
    • By Rambles2814 10th Jan 18, 10:52 AM
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    Rambles2814
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:52 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:52 AM
    I was never arrested. I have been interviewed about it but heard nothing since. They said it would be down the my friend as when I rang and told her she's rang the police and crimed it. I apologised and said I'd give her back the money I spent and do what I could to fix it. I went to work after this and half an hour in to my shift I was called to see managers, made to resign and wait for the police since she crimed it. Gave my accoint of what happened and was sent home. I've never done anything like this before and I'm devasted it happened. The police says it's down to my friend what happens but at worst I could receive a caution. Ive received my offers but haven't accepted any as of yet and have not begun the dbs checks.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Jan 18, 12:05 PM
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    Comms69
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:05 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:05 PM
    I was never arrested. - So you were invited to an interview? I have been interviewed about it but heard nothing since. - Did you get legal advice, I guess not? You have to agree a caution, you aren't served with one They said it would be down the my friend as when I rang and told her she's rang the police and crimed it. I apologised and said I'd give her back the money I spent and do what I could to fix it. - Well that's just not true. We don't press charges in the UK I went to work after this and half an hour in to my shift I was called to see managers, made to resign and wait for the police since she crimed it. - what?? That just doesn't make sense Gave my accoint of what happened and was sent home. I've never done anything like this before and I'm devasted it happened. The police says it's down to my friend what happens but at worst I could receive a caution. Ive received my offers but haven't accepted any as of yet and have not begun the dbs checks.
    Originally posted by Rambles2814


    Well maybe you should find out what happened to the case. If you haven't signed anything then you haven't got a caution
    • Rambles2814
    • By Rambles2814 10th Jan 18, 12:28 PM
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    Rambles2814
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:28 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:28 PM
    Sorry if I'm not making much sense. I was never invited to an interview. We work at the same place and work saw it as gross misconduct as I'd used the card there. I had the card about a week as I have several cards and thought it was mine, when I came to putting the pin in and it said incorrect is when I realised it wasn't and rang her and explained, apologised and offered her the money back which I spent. She went on to crime it as I'd used the card multiple times without her knowledge and she rang work and explain what had happened which led to me either being dismissed with a disciplinary or resign immediately. I didn't want a disciplinary so I resigned. Since it was crimed the police came to my place of work as I wasn't allowed to leave. Gave my account of events and they let me go. It's only been a few days but I was wanting advice on it. I haven't been given anything by the police or any contact details for the people handling the case
    • TonyMMM
    • By TonyMMM 10th Jan 18, 12:38 PM
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    TonyMMM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:38 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 12:38 PM
    A caution by police is given after you admit guilt - if this was a genuine mistake then there was no offence committed, so you certainly shouldn't accept a caution for it.

    From what you have said this is just an enquiry in progress - wait and see what the outcome is.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Jan 18, 12:39 PM
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    Comms69
    Sorry if I'm not making much sense. I was never invited to an interview. We work at the same place and work saw it as gross misconduct as I'd used the card there. I had the card about a week as I have several cards and thought it was mine, when I came to putting the pin in and it said incorrect is when I realised it wasn't and rang her and explained, apologised and offered her the money back which I spent. She went on to crime it as I'd used the card multiple times without her knowledge and she rang work and explain what had happened which led to me either being dismissed with a disciplinary or resign immediately. I didn't want a disciplinary so I resigned. Since it was crimed the police came to my place of work as I wasn't allowed to leave. Gave my account of events and they let me go. It's only been a few days but I was wanting advice on it. I haven't been given anything by the police or any contact details for the people handling the case
    Originally posted by Rambles2814


    Shame, you might've won the disciplinary....


    Just FYI you can leave anywhere at any time, unless the police arrest you (or you're in prison).


    At the minute you have no record. I suspect it will stay that way. Can I suggest you research some basic rights, laws and criminal procedure.


    Not sure why you started off saying you got a caution for fraud.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 10th Jan 18, 12:43 PM
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    elsien
    Being picky now, but if you're going to do a degree you might want to start using correct English instead of made up words such as "she crimed it."

    You will know if/when you are offered a caution. Take proper legal advice before accepting it if it comes to that because it will stay on your record. Although I'm curious how you had the card in your possession to use multiple times and why your friend didn't notice it had gone AWOL.
    You might also have been hasty in resigning prior to disciplinary, as any reference could now state that you left while disciplinary action was pending although it's too late to change that now. Can I suggest that in future if anything happens, get some proper advice before you make any rushed decisions.
    Last edited by elsien; 10-01-2018 at 12:49 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Rambles2814
    • By Rambles2814 10th Jan 18, 2:21 PM
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    Rambles2814
    I really do need to think more in rushed decisions. I've never been involved with anything like this or the police so I was extremely worried and scared. We had been on a night out and I was staying at her house. I was pretty drunk but the most I can remember is my purse was all over the side of the kitchen, coins and my cards and hers was too as we'd used different bags etc. Not thinking I just gathered everything up and put into my purse and never gave it another thought. When I went to use the card I just used my contactless as I normally do and nothing was thought of it. She never realised as it was a credit card. I only use my credit card every now and then as I'm trying to rebuild my credit score.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 10th Jan 18, 7:12 PM
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    theoretica
    I hope you have already paid her back in full. It isn't the sort of thing you offer to do, it is something you just do. Having paid her back can do you no harm in future dealings with the police - you were the one to tell her you had it, and paid it back immediately.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 10th Jan 18, 8:19 PM
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    sangie595
    Ermmm.... You used the card once, but then again you used it several times, and it was totally accidental because you have several cards which I assume are yours but you happened to have her card (how? Not even my best friend has my card!!!)

    The hole you are digging is bigger. It started out unbelievable and has ended up on another planet. They won't believe any of this - even I am thinking that you are not a suitable person to be working with vulnerable people, and that's based on your version of the story.
    • t0rt0ise
    • By t0rt0ise 10th Jan 18, 8:33 PM
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    t0rt0ise
    Ermmm.... You used the card once, but then again you used it several times, and it was totally accidental because you have several cards which I assume are yours but you happened to have her card (how? Not even my best friend has my card!!!)
    Originally posted by sangie595
    She just explained how she ended up with the card by mistake. She has also said that she used the card several times contactless and then realised her mistake when she had to put the PIN in and it didn't work. It does make sense.


    I hope OP that you have paid back the money you spent. I would hope that if you did that immediately, your friend would accept and drop the complaint.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 10th Jan 18, 10:31 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    I hope OP that you have paid back the money you spent. I would hope that if you did that immediately, your friend would accept and drop the complaint.
    Originally posted by t0rt0ise
    Even if your friend does not drop the complaint, I can't see that this would be taken to court if you refused to accept a caution.

    You need to do some research on this - google 'should I accept a police caution' - and be prepared to get legal advice. The police will tell you that if you accept a caution it will all be over and you won't have to go to court, but what they don't tell you is that the caution will show on your DBS.

    If you don't accept the caution, then it's up to the CPS whether or not to prosecute you. If you've repaid the money, I can't see that it's in the public interest to do so. If you've repaid the money and have a reasonable explanation for what happened, even more ditto.

    I would also, as a matter of urgency, work out what you will say to explain why you left this job, presumably without having another one to go to. And I hope job-hunting goes well.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 2 shawls, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 1 seaman's hat ...
    Current projects: 1 shawl, another seaman's hat
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 10th Jan 18, 10:35 PM
    • 421 Posts
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    PersianCatLady
    She just explained how she ended up with the card by mistake. She has also said that she used the card several times contactless and then realised her mistake when she had to put the PIN in and it didn't work. It does make sense.


    I hope OP that you have paid back the money you spent. I would hope that if you did that immediately, your friend would accept and drop the complaint.
    Originally posted by t0rt0ise
    The friend may well go to the Police and ask to "drop the complaint" but the Police may go ahead and prosecute anyway.

    The Police don't need the friend's agreement to prosecute the OP, although lack of co-operation by the friend may make it difficult to get a conviction.
    • Rambles2814
    • By Rambles2814 10th Jan 18, 11:40 PM
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    Rambles2814
    I unfortunately haven't paid her back, I have tried to ring and message her but she won't reply and has deleted me off social media.

    I've been advised not to keep pestering her as this could make the case worse. If I had her bank details I would happily transfer it. I would personally go to her house but I feel like that might cause more hassle
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 10th Jan 18, 11:45 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    The friend may well go to the Police and ask to "drop the complaint" but the Police may go ahead and prosecute anyway.

    The Police don't need the friend's agreement to prosecute the OP, although lack of co-operation by the friend may make it difficult to get a conviction.
    Originally posted by PersianCatLady
    Although technically, it isn't the police who make the decision to prosecute, it's the CPS. The police investigate, and pass their findings on to the CPS.

    From the CPS home page:
    to charge someone with a criminal offence, prosecutors must be satisfied that there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and that prosecuting is in the public interest.
    So:
    evidence - yes the OP admits using someone else's card, but alleges that this was by mistake, and phoned the cardholder as soon as they realised the mistake, and - we're all hoping this is the case! - REPAID THE MONEY IMMEDIATELY.

    realistic prospect of conviction - tricky, given that the OP admits the offence, BUT by not accepting a caution (if one is offered) the police then have to send the evidence to the CPS

    prosecution in the public interest - I can't see how, not for a first offence, not for what is presumably not several k, not if the money has been repaid.

    Having said all that, I believe you will need to declare this when you make your DBS applications, UNLESS and until you have heard from the police that they do not intend to take any further action, and I would get some advice about this. I know where I work, some of our staff need DBS checks, and both they and applicants need to tell us if they are under investigation.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 2 shawls, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 1 seaman's hat ...
    Current projects: 1 shawl, another seaman's hat
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 11th Jan 18, 5:43 AM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    Although technically, it isn't the police who make the decision to prosecute, it's the CPS. The police investigate, and pass their findings on to the CPS.

    From the CPS home page:
    to charge someone with a criminal offence, prosecutors must be satisfied that there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and that prosecuting is in the public interest.
    So:
    evidence - yes the OP admits using someone else's card, but alleges that this was by mistake, and phoned the cardholder as soon as they realised the mistake, and - we're all hoping this is the case! - REPAID THE MONEY IMMEDIATELY.

    realistic prospect of conviction - tricky, given that the OP admits the offence, BUT by not accepting a caution (if one is offered) the police then have to send the evidence to the CPS

    prosecution in the public interest - I can't see how, not for a first offence, not for what is presumably not several k, not if the money has been repaid.

    Having said all that, I believe you will need to declare this when you make your DBS applications, UNLESS and until you have heard from the police that they do not intend to take any further action, and I would get some advice about this. I know where I work, some of our staff need DBS checks, and both they and applicants need to tell us if they are under investigation.
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    I put police rather than CPS as I couldn't be bothered to go into a full on explanation about prosecution even though I remember learning about it in my first "Legal Process" lecture way back in my first year at university.

    You have done a great job of explaining it all though.
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