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    • Eliza
    • By Eliza 9th Jan 18, 1:08 PM
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    Eliza
    Help with interpreting land registry entry please
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:08 PM
    Help with interpreting land registry entry please 9th Jan 18 at 1:08 PM
    I've lived in my current rented house for many years and the landlady is elderly, not that I ever see her! As it's an old house I thought I'd while away some time this morning looking into its history. Having downloaded the title and plans from Land Registry I see that ownership passed to her daughter a couple of years ago - I had no idea. The daughter's address is shown as being where I know the landlady lives although I know they don't live together This was first registration.

    I don't suppose that matters in itself but the value is shown as not more than £80k. The house is worth at least £200k if not more. Is there any reason that they would've put that value down? I'd love to buy it and could almost do so at £80k but not at £200k!! I'm also surprised the daughter hasn't tried to increase the rent, it's pretty cheap now and hasn't gone up for 15 yrs! However the trade off is that I pay for all repairs except for biggies such as new roof.

    Would be grateful if anyone can shed any light on the value, how it has been decided, is it independently valued or does Land Registry accept the owner's word etc

    Thanks.
Page 1
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 1:14 PM
    • 421 Posts
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    PersianCatLady
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:14 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:14 PM
    I thought that the value was the last price that the property was sold for??

    Perhaps it was a way for the mother to pass the house to the daughter legally, at a price she could afford, ensuring that the mother would have no money left to pay for her care in old age??

    Who knows??

    I cannot see how the previously sold price matters to you now and it certainly wouldn't mean that you could buy it for that price.
    • Eliza
    • By Eliza 9th Jan 18, 1:27 PM
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    Eliza
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:27 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:27 PM
    I thought that the value was the last price that the property was sold for??
    Originally posted by PersianCatLady
    Ah ok, I didn't realise that, thank you. I thought that perhaps the daughter had just picked a figure out of the air or some other reason for giving that price. I need to do some more digging then, as I do know it previously belonged to a large old estate, long gone as has the aristocratic family. Maybe my present landlady's ancestors bought it for £80 from the then Duke or something.

    Many thanks for the response. More research needed obviously!
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
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    PersianCatLady
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:05 PM
    Ah ok, I didn't realise that, thank you. I thought that perhaps the daughter had just picked a figure out of the air or some other reason for giving that price. I need to do some more digging then, as I do know it previously belonged to a large old estate, long gone as has the aristocratic family. Maybe my present landlady's ancestors bought it for £80 from the then Duke or something.

    Many thanks for the response. More research needed obviously!
    Originally posted by Eliza
    I think (but don't know) that when the ownership passed to the daughter a couple of years ago, the mother must have received £80K from the daughter.

    Now this bit is pure guessing but if the mother has spent the £80K and now needs to go into care then she has no money with which to pay for it, the house belongs to the daughter.

    If the house was worth more then selling it "cheap" to a relative at least seven years before death would save money on IHT.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 9th Jan 18, 2:31 PM
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    agrinnall
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:31 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:31 PM
    More importantly, as the property has been sold/transferred you have a new landlord. It doesn't sound like you were ever informed of this, and I suspect therefore that if you paid a deposit it may no longer be validly held.
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 2:44 PM
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    PersianCatLady
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:44 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:44 PM
    More importantly, as the property has been sold/transferred you have a new landlord. It doesn't sound like you were ever informed of this, and I suspect therefore that if you paid a deposit it may no longer be validly held.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    Well spotted there, Agrinnall.

    OP - The old lady is not your LL, the daughter is.

    I am now wondering if the reason for the old lady supposedly being the LL is to do with tax???
    • Typhoon2000
    • By Typhoon2000 9th Jan 18, 2:54 PM
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    Typhoon2000
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:54 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 2:54 PM
    Your land lord does not have to be the legal owner of the property to be your landlord. It is the person you have have the contract with, that’s all.
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 3:10 PM
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    PersianCatLady
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:10 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:10 PM
    Your land lord does not have to be the legal owner of the property to be your landlord. It is the person you have have the contract with, thatís all.
    Originally posted by Typhoon2000
    Do you have a link for that at all??

    If that is the case, what is to stop me renting out one property with me as LL and several others with each of my kids as LLs, whilst I am the legal owner of all of them, in order to minimise our overall income tax liability?
    • deannatrois
    • By deannatrois 9th Jan 18, 3:13 PM
    • 4,988 Posts
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    deannatrois
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:13 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 18, 3:13 PM
    If you and children are over 18, nothing. it gets more complicated if they are under 18, but not impossible http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/wealthy-families-find-stamp-duty-loophole-to-buy-property-for-ch/
    • Eliza
    • By Eliza 9th Jan 18, 3:22 PM
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    Eliza
    Thanks all - very intriguing! This tenancy was started well before the current deposit rules were conceived and I have a receipt for it from way back then.

    Having such an interesting time - the register refers to a conveyance/charge back in 1978 with the lord of the manor. Off to find out more about him!
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 3:46 PM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    If you and children are over 18, nothing. it gets more complicated if they are under 18, but not impossible http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/wealthy-families-find-stamp-duty-loophole-to-buy-property-for-ch/
    Originally posted by deannatrois
    The link is talking about when the property is bought through a trust so the trust is treated as the legal owner, not the parent or child.

    There is no mention of a trust here so I am assuming that there isn't one.

    The OP stated that ownership of the property passed to the daughter a couple of years ago, so the legal owner of the property is the daughter.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 9th Jan 18, 3:48 PM
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    Mojisola
    I thought that the value was the last price that the property was sold for??
    Originally posted by PersianCatLady
    When we did a voluntary first registration last year after owning the house for some years, the value of the house had to be its current value, not what we paid for it.
    • Eliza
    • By Eliza 9th Jan 18, 4:10 PM
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    • 1,808 Thanks
    Eliza
    When we did a voluntary first registration last year after owning the house for some years, the value of the house had to be its current value, not what we paid for it.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    Who determined that value? Did you have to get an independent valuer to do so or were you able to give an estimate yourself?
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 4:26 PM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    When we did a voluntary first registration last year after owning the house for some years, the value of the house had to be its current value, not what we paid for it.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    The OP said that the property was registered when the ownership was transferred from mother to daughter.

    In this situation, the price would have been the purchase price.

    May I ask a genuine question out of interest - why did you register your house voluntarily last year, was there a reason?
    • Tiglet2
    • By Tiglet2 9th Jan 18, 6:41 PM
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    • 15 Thanks
    Tiglet2
    I'm wondering whether the old lady had added the daughter on the title initially as a transfer of equity and then at a later date took herself off the title. Sometimes these transfer of equities are done as a "Transfer at under value" between family members. If you wanted to buy the property, you would have to pay what it's worth on the open market.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 9th Jan 18, 9:19 PM
    • 28,772 Posts
    • 73,426 Thanks
    Mojisola
    Who determined that value? Did you have to get an independent valuer to do so or were you able to give an estimate yourself?
    Originally posted by Eliza
    There were a couple of similar houses nearby which had sold at the same time and we gave an approximate value for our house.

    The OP said that the property was registered when the ownership was transferred from mother to daughter.

    In this situation, the price would have been the purchase price.

    That's not what we understood from the forms - the price you pay for registering is based on the value of the property, not an undervalue sale price.

    May I ask a genuine question out of interest - why did you register your house voluntarily last year, was there a reason?
    Originally posted by PersianCatLady
    The house would have needed to be registered at some point. It was easier (and cheaper) for us to do it now while we are capable of doing it.

    As it was, the process raised a couple of issues that we were able to sort out easily because we knew the background to the property and the boundaries so we were pleased we did it and didn't leave a problem for, possibly, our kids to deal with.
    • PersianCatLady
    • By PersianCatLady 9th Jan 18, 10:02 PM
    • 421 Posts
    • 387 Thanks
    PersianCatLady
    There were a couple of similar houses nearby which had sold at the same time and we gave an approximate value for our house.



    The house would have needed to be registered at some point. It was easier (and cheaper) for us to do it now while we are capable of doing it.

    As it was, the process raised a couple of issues that we were able to sort out easily because we knew the background to the property and the boundaries so we were pleased we did it and didn't leave a problem for, possibly, our kids to deal with.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    Thanks for answering that Mojisola.

    With regards the stated price on the Land Registry title register.

    If the property was actually sold from the mother to the daughter for a sum of money, then that is the figure that would be entered on the register, ie £80,000.

    Although this seems odd that the mother would sell to the daughter for £80,000 (less than market value) it does make sense if the mother was getting her affairs in order.

    As HM Land Registry is under a statutory obligation to enter price paid whenever practicable, so if there has been a sale for a sum of money.

    In cases where no payment is made or the price cannot be calculated we will make a value stated entry. If the actual value is not known, an entry may be made on the basis of the information given to HM Land Registry for assessing the fees. (I copied this paragraph from
    HM Land Registry)

    Here is a link to the full practice guide -
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/price-paid-or-value-information-registration-procedures/practice-guide-7-entry-of-price-paid-or-value-stated-data-in-the-register#when-the-price-paid-should-be-entered
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